Re: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom

 

Frank wrote: <<Would it be possible for you to provide the math work behind
these picks that lead you to the conclusion that these were positive
expectancies???>>

I don't believe Coach Vee said his picks were positive expectation ones.
That's not the term most race pickers use. There are some professional
"syndicates" that do a lot of computer crunching for horseracing (and sports
betting) and pure math is more of a factor although even then not the total
picture since humans input the factors they think are important. However,
a good handicapper would usually make up his own list of factors, based on
his research and past experience.

<<Currently I have no way to double check your work because I don't know
horse math.>>

Did he ask you to check his work? Just wondering.

________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

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Re: [vpFREE] Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas LVA BLOG - 7 MAY 2011

 

There was a sign at the slot club desk today - quite a small one too. They
surely didn't spread the word of this change.
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

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[vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

 

> > You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you
> double the $1000 or go broke.  This particular
> blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic
> strategy.  You know basic strategy but don't know how
> to count cards.  You will be the only one playing and
> the deck will be shuffled after every deal. 
> >
> > What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best
> chance to double the $1000?
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Pretty easy (I think).  Bet once - $1000.  If U
> bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%.  I'm not
> taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud
> B wrong.
>

Although I started this post to state that I agreed that this was correct, if you can follow my tedious and confusing logic below, you might decide that I was wrong, and that a single bet of the entire bankroll is NOT correct. This is because the single bet will reduce the return on the game, and doing so MIGHT therefore indicate a different betting strategy that would NOT reduce the return on the game.

Thinking out loud (always dangerous if your thoughts turns out to be stupid - but I find that when I'm done with this post, I'm seeing both sides of the answer, which perhap makes me look stupider, or perhaps saves me)...

If you have ONLY the $1,000, then you won't be able to double down or split pairs, etc., even if that is the correct play -- and therefore you will NOT be able to play correct basic strategy in all circumstances if you bet the whole $1,000 -- and getting the projected 99.6% return presumably depends on actually playing correctly for whatever hand(s) you are dealt, including those that require a double down or a split. Therefore, the theoretical return on the game for a single bet of $1,000 will be less than 99.6%, since you won't be able to make those plays when they are correct.

Still, with MOST bets paying even money, I would think that it would not matter whether the return is 99.6%, or even substantially less, perhaps down to some end point where the game becomes VERY negative (big house edge) - and maybe there is no such end point. It even seems to me that in any game where the most common bet payoff is even money, no matter what the house edge is, if it's a negative game for the player, the correct play to double up or lose it all with a maximum chance of the former would still be to bet it all at once.

If I'm correct, the interesting thing is that this money management strategy would be optimal for a double-up no matter what the house edge is!! It seems a little illogical, but again, if the most common payout is even money, I think it's correct.

If, on the other hand, most bets paid less than even money as the most common payout, then a smaller amount with a double-up after winning seems like it might be the right strategy, while if most bets paid more than even money, I can't envision how it would remain a house-advantage game.

As I say all this, now I can't help but wonder if reducing the expected return on the game by forcing yourself into a situation where you can't always play correctly (ie, by betting all your money at once, precluding correct plays for double downs and pair splits), doesn't in fact change the correct betting strategy -- perhaps the optimal double-up betting strategy MUST preserve the expected return of the game with basic strategy, in which case you WOULD need to bet less and be able to split pairs and double down if indicated. Maybe more than one bet with a preserved option to play correct strategy in all cases and thus a prserved maximum return of the game, is better than a single large bet without that option therefore accompanied by a reduced return.

Maybe I'm too tired to figure this out; I know I've always been told that the best way to double your money at other games is to bet it all, but those are games like roulette, etc., where you just choose the even money bet (even though it is less than 50% to pay off) and bet it all -- but blackjack is a game where betting it all would actually change your strategy options for some of the hands you might receive and reduce the expected return, and therefore the max bet might NOT be correct for such a game.

--BG
========================

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[vpFREE] Re:derby picks

 

Thanks Coach!

My girlfriend and I just got back from our small track here in Minnesota,
(Running Aces).  Based on the last three years of tips, we put in a couple of
trifectas, and a win on # 16 for a $100.00,  a huge bet for us. 

Wow! we celebrated all evening, and tomorrow, we'll start to plan a vacation.
Thanks
 Greg

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

 

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Paul Coleman <pdcolemanjr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You would have to loose 8 hands in a row to loose. Odds of that are
> pretty close to impossible Wrong?

On what planet does 1/256 qualify as "close to impossible?"

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[vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom

 

Frank,

There is no math formula for horse racing. You can estimate winning probabilities based on any number of factors, but there is a lot of debate over just what factors have value. You need to identify who is overbet and who is underbet to determine if you have a positive expectancy. For many races it is difficult to find anything worth betting. The Derby almost always provides value because of the large amount of bets made without any attempt to handicap the race.

Chris

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
>
> Would it be possible for you to provide the math work behind these picks that lead you to the conclusion that these were positive expectancies???
>
> Currently I have no way to double check your work because I don't know horse math.
>
> ~FK
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, James Thompson <jamesgthompson@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Unbelievable!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > From: sewellnj@
> > Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 22:44:07 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [vpFREE] XVP - Derby Picks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Good Job Coach! I owe you a drink. Thanks John.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: coachvee@
> > To: acvpp@yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpmail2@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 8:54:16 AM
> > Subject: [vpFREE] XVP - Derby Picks
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Gang:
> > Here are my picks for tomorrow's Kentucky Derby with a little analysis of
> > each horse. Good luck to everyone. Enjoy the spectacle!!
> > Regards,
> > CoachVee
> > 1. MASTER OF HOUNDS (No. 11, 30-1). European invader lost by nostril
> > to superstar filly at 1 3/16 miles in UAE Derby off long layoff; stalking
> > style perfect for this race and breeding says he'll love distance; picks up
> > Eclipse-winning jock.
> > 2. MIDNIGHT INTERLUDE (No. 15, 10-1). Probably ran Derby distance
> > when four-wide throughout in Santa Anita Derby score; Baffert master at
> > preparing horses for this race; working like gangbusters over track.
> > 3. NEHRO (No. 19, 6-1). Improving colt just missed in last two,
> > including neck loss in Arkansas Derby; trainer/jock combo top notch; will be
> > charging hard through stretch.
> > 4. DIALED IN (No. 8, 4-1). Likely favorite has few flaws; right there
> > in four lifetime starts and trainer has won this race twice; might be left
> > with too much to do.
> > LONGSHOT SPECIAL: ANIMAL KINGDOM (No. 16, 30-1). Honest,
> > hard-knocking colt getting good at right time; bred to run all day; handles any
> > surface.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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RE: [vpFREE] Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas LVA BLOG - 7 MAY 2011

 

Where did you get your info on the bonus points? I saw no ads and received
no info. Any other days this month?

Thanks.

Scot

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
vpFREE Administrator
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 4:59 PM
To: vpFREE@Yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas LVA BLOG - 7 MAY 2011

Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas LVA BLOG - 7 MAY 2011

"Silverton Alert!!!"

http://jscott.lvablog.com/?p=1246

<a href="http://jscott.lvablog.com/?p=1246">
http://jscott.lvablog.com/?p=1246</a>

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This link is posted for informational purposes
and doesn't constitute an endorsement or approval
of the linked article's content by vpFREE. Any
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accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.
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[vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

 

For the heck of it I messed around a bit with the Lotspiech calculator. The lowest you can run it is for 5 and then 10, which equates to bet sizes of 1/4 and 1/8 of the goal respectively. So you know the following:

for bet size equals goal ($1000), win rate is 31%
for bet size equals 1/4 of goal ($250), win rate is 44%
for bet size equals 1/8 of goal ($125), win rate is 41%

So the optimum is somewhere between $1000 and $125.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "alan3262" <alan3262@> wrote:
> >But in video poker, I think you start out betting substantially less than $1,000/hand.
>
>
> Probably true. One hand of 9-6 JOB has only a 24% win rate, because on average when you win you go over the goal. The more hands you play, the more your win rate approaches 50% on a breakeven game, but the more hands you play, the more vig you pay on a negative game, so there your win rate approaches 0%. You should account for the vig, if your goal is win $1,000 but the vig is $5, then you really need to win $1005. If you have to put in $2000 coin-in to win the $1000, then the vig is $10, and you really need to win $1010, and so on. There's probably an optimal in there somewhere. You could figure it out with Lotspiech's gambler's ruin calculator:
>
> http://www.lotspiech.com/poker/GamblersRuin.html
>
> Or ask Frank what he'd charge to figure it out?
>
> I have a for free guess, I'd guess about $100, but that could be way off, I just don't know. You have to run the numbers and see.
>

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[vpFREE] Cosmopolitian Casino Questions

 

What is Cosmo's video poker cash back %, if any? Do they have any multiple cb/pts days? Please throw in any other relevant info you might know.

Thanks.

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[vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

 

I have to also add it can go the other way as well. Years ago, back in college, I went to Vegas on my own. Couldnt find a $5 table that was empty so I sat as the lone player at a $25 table. Bought just four checks. I played almost forty hands and only lost 3 of them.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Sai Sai" <gofastnismo@...> wrote:
>
> My brother in law lost 10 hands in a row at the Rio a few years back. Its very possible.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Paul Coleman <pdcolemanjr@> wrote:
> >
> > Assuming it was possible and you had all the time in the world wouldn't you just start with a 5 dollar bet and then double up each time. You would have to loose 8 hands in a row to loose. Odds of that are pretty close to impossible Wrong?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:14 PM, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chev59el" <dje59@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?
> > > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > Pretty easy (I think). Bet once - $1000. If U bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%. I'm not taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud B wrong.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Winner! Chicken Dinner! By breaking your bets into increments of $1000, and betting over and over again, the compound effect of negative expectation gambling kicks in. Your best chance is to bet the whole thing at once. This speaks to the conflicting interests that gamblers have; they want to win, but they also want their money to last awhile.
> > >
> > > My old buddy, Black Bart, the guy that taught me how to hustle credits about 1992, was a case study in compulsive gambling. He could never go to sleep with a dollar in his pocket.
> > >
> > > His Margingale worked like this on the craps table. He'd bet 1 unit. If he lost that bet he'd double up and add one. So the next bet would be 3 units. If he lost that bet then the next bet was 15 units, etc.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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[vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

 

My brother in law lost 10 hands in a row at the Rio a few years back. Its very possible.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Paul Coleman <pdcolemanjr@...> wrote:
>
> Assuming it was possible and you had all the time in the world wouldn't you just start with a 5 dollar bet and then double up each time. You would have to loose 8 hands in a row to loose. Odds of that are pretty close to impossible Wrong?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 7, 2011, at 12:14 PM, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chev59el" <dje59@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.
> > > >
> > > > What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?
> > > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Pretty easy (I think). Bet once - $1000. If U bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%. I'm not taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud B wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Winner! Chicken Dinner! By breaking your bets into increments of $1000, and betting over and over again, the compound effect of negative expectation gambling kicks in. Your best chance is to bet the whole thing at once. This speaks to the conflicting interests that gamblers have; they want to win, but they also want their money to last awhile.
> >
> > My old buddy, Black Bart, the guy that taught me how to hustle credits about 1992, was a case study in compulsive gambling. He could never go to sleep with a dollar in his pocket.
> >
> > His Margingale worked like this on the craps table. He'd bet 1 unit. If he lost that bet he'd double up and add one. So the next bet would be 3 units. If he lost that bet then the next bet was 15 units, etc.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: A Hypothetical Question

 

Assuming it was possible and you had all the time in the world wouldn't you just start with a 5 dollar bet and then double up each time. You would have to loose 8 hands in a row to loose. Odds of that are pretty close to impossible Wrong?

Sent from my iPhone

On May 7, 2011, at 12:14 PM, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "chev59el" <dje59@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have $1000 and intend to play blackjack until you double the $1000 or go broke. This particular blackjack game has a theoretical return of 99.6% with basic strategy. You know basic strategy but don't know how to count cards. You will be the only one playing and the deck will be shuffled after every deal.
> > >
> > > What is the optimal bet sizing to give you the best chance to double the $1000?
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Pretty easy (I think). Bet once - $1000. If U bet less every time U R playing @ 99.6%. I'm not taking into account chances 2 double & BJ, etc. so I cud B wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> Winner! Chicken Dinner! By breaking your bets into increments of $1000, and betting over and over again, the compound effect of negative expectation gambling kicks in. Your best chance is to bet the whole thing at once. This speaks to the conflicting interests that gamblers have; they want to win, but they also want their money to last awhile.
>
> My old buddy, Black Bart, the guy that taught me how to hustle credits about 1992, was a case study in compulsive gambling. He could never go to sleep with a dollar in his pocket.
>
> His Margingale worked like this on the craps table. He'd bet 1 unit. If he lost that bet he'd double up and add one. So the next bet would be 3 units. If he lost that bet then the next bet was 15 units, etc.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks

 

The biggest mistake good handicappers make is not using inductive reasoning. Just because a horse has not won on current conditions doesn't mean it won't do it today. Animal Kingdom proved that today and am surprised the price wasn't higher.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coachvee@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Gang:
> > Here are my picks for tomorrow̢۪s Kentucky Derby with a little analysis of
> > each horse. Good luck to everyone. Enjoy the spectacle!!
> > Regards,
> > CoachVee
> > 1. MASTER OF HOUNDS (No. 11, 30-1). European invader lost by nostril
> > to superstar filly at 1 3/16 miles in UAE Derby off long layoff; stalking
> > style perfect for this race and breeding says he̢۪ll love distance; picks up
> > Eclipse-winning jock.
> > 2. MIDNIGHT INTERLUDE (No. 15, 10-1). Probably ran Derby distance
> > when four-wide throughout in Santa Anita Derby score; Baffert master at
> > preparing horses for this race; working like gangbusters over track.
> > 3. NEHRO (No. 19, 6-1). Improving colt just missed in last two,
> > including neck loss in Arkansas Derby; trainer/jock combo top notch; will be
> > charging hard through stretch.
> > 4. DIALED IN (No. 8, 4-1). Likely favorite has few flaws; right there
> > in four lifetime starts and trainer has won this race twice; might be left
> > with too much to do.
> > LONGSHOT SPECIAL: ANIMAL KINGDOM (No. 16, 30-1). Honest,
> > hard-knocking colt getting good at right time; bred to run all day; handles any
> > surface.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> I agree with your high opinion of Nehro and Midnight Interlude. They would be co-favorites in my own line at about 9-1.
>
> I like your longshot, too, though your comment "handles any surface" is a stretch.
>

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