[vpFREE] More on Bill Zender

 

Don't miss this week's Bob & Frank Show, because this guy Bill Zender is really interesting. Here are a few of his ideas on blackjack.

For one thing, he seems to think the "danger" to the casinos' bottom line, from card counters, is HIGHLY over-rated. Essentially, if a player isn't wagering big money, it's hardly worth even worrying about. I don't think I am misrepresenting his view by saying that green chip players should practically be ignored as far as card counting is concerned.

Also, I believe he thinks the "no mid-shoe entry" rule is counter productive. Not only is it rare that a player is competent enough to be of concern, but even if he is competent and trying to jump into the middle of a positive shoe the mathematical "cost" is minimal. At most, the player should be observed later. And besides, it just sends the wrong message saying that "We do not want you playing."

And here's something I found especially interesting. In regard to shoe penetration, Zender apparently thinks there should be DEEPER penetration, not less. Again, he feels that the number of competent counters is over-rated, but even so, the threat from counters is dwarfed by the fact that less penetration means less hands dealt out, or less decisions rendered, and thus it costs the casinos in the long run.

Fascinating! I am so looking forward to this week's show.

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[vpFREE] Calculating action/win loss $ for a trip-for visitors (eg.3 days to a week)

 



It is pretty simple-gambling action only for
this example.

I start with $ XX and I finish with $ XX

The math(ad or subtract) will be conclusive for $$ +win or -loss.

The "mental masturbation" requires tracking all the winning hands
you should have received based on the theoretical computer
pay back for the "game you are playing, BUT DID NOT GET. The common
complaint I hear is "I am X number of royals behind." It is rare to hear about the exciting anomalies,"I hit 5 royals in 4 days with minimal play"(been there and very happy to be lucky)

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[vpFREE] Re: M progs question on cashback/freeplay

 

Certainly.

On Dollars, Single points takes $15 an hour off your loss rate and reduces the average cost to hit the RF by $480 bringing it to $10,053 on the 7/5 JoB.

Triple points would reduce your hourly loss by $45 an hour and reduce the cost to $9,093.

CB is also a huge reducer of volatility, since you can't run bad or good on coin-in.

I do not believe there is a ceiling.

Does this cover your questions?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:
>
> Frank - I know I'll be losing $200/hr, while chasing a 3X Royal on the 100.94 , super high volitility $1 7/5 jacks machine. Can you give me the cash back/free play figures per hour on:
> A. single points day
> B. triple points day.
>
> Is there a ceiling on daily freeplay/cashback ?
>
> thanks...Tom
> PS - It would be a lot better to play a game that had some mini jackpots thrown in ...the royal or begone action of Jacks is too scary !
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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[vpFREE] M progs question on cashback/freeplay

 

Frank - I know I'll be losing $200/hr, while chasing a 3X Royal on the 100.94 , super high volitility $1 7/5 jacks machine. Can you give me the cash back/free play figures per hour on:
A. single points day
B. triple points day.

Is there a ceiling on daily freeplay/cashback ?

thanks...Tom
PS - It would be a lot better to play a game that had some mini jackpots thrown in ...the royal or begone action of Jacks is too scary !

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: The Impossible Question

I am of the opinion that the day begins and ends with the sleep/nap/etc
which you plan on being the longest. i.e. if you plan on being up for most
of a 24-48hr period the times in there which you plan to have the longest
period of sleep are how you break up the day. Maybe the sleep which has the
most normal of your nightly routine is a better way to describe it? Like the
one where you brush your teeth and get under the covers of your bed etc, vs
the naps which may or may not include those portions.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> OK now this was a useful answer.
>
> Just to be sure I'm clear, even though some of your play occurred before
> midnight, and before you went to sleep and got up again, you still consider
> it to be the same day. Interesting!
>
> Would you have included play that occurred 25 hours before your Royal?
>
> Let's say you gotten there at 3PM, but the Royal wasn't hit until 4PM the
> next day.
>
> Just curious, so I can tabulate opinions.
>
> ~FK
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Sai Sai" <gofastnismo@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I consider that all one day, break even. I break everything into
> continuous 24 hour time periods. If I hit a royal at 8 pm and then at 8 am
> the next day I still consider that 2 royals in one day.
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> > >
> > > In line with our current discussion about how people perceive their
> results in discreet slices of time that begin and end primarily in their own
> minds. I have constructed the following thought experiment. Hope you like
> it.
> > >
> > > The Impossible Question
> > >
> > > You're in Las Vegas for a three day vacation. It's about five o'clock
> in the afternoon of your second day in Vegas. You saunter into your hotel
> room whereupon your significant other asks you a simple question, "How are
> you doing today in the casino?". Your goal is to answer as truthfully as
> possible without confabulation or obfuscation. There is no need to sugar
> coat the truth or deceive, as you budgeted appropriately for the trip. You
> simply need to answer the question accurately. Why should this be difficult?
> Well, I'm getting to that.
> > >
> > > Here's your data:
> > >
> > > You arrived yesterday afternoon at 4PM and played your favorite machine
> from 5PM-7PM until dinner time and lost $200. After dinner you resumed play
> on the same machine and played for six hours straight, losing $600. However,
> during this six hours of continuous play on the same machine the date
> changed halfway through. Before midnight you were only down $200. After
> midnight you lost an additional $400. At 4AM you went to bed for the night
> and only slept 3 hours, returning to your machine at 8AM after a quick
> breakfast. During this play session you made back +$100 and then, still
> tired from your long night, decided to lie down for a quick nap, which
> turned into 2 hours and fifty minutes. Upon rising from your nap you again
> returned to your favorite machine and hit a Royal, winning $700 after losses
> and a tip, before your date with destiny and the impossible question your
> loved one was about to ask.
> > >
> > > "How are you doing today in the casino?"
> > >
> > > Here's a list of the data points:
> > > 1.Afternoon first day = -200
> > > 2.After dinner before midnight -200 (part of continuous 6 hours
> session)
> > > 3.After midnight = -400 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
> > > 4.After going to sleep for 3 hours = +100
> > > 5.After 2 hour 50 min nap = +700
> > >
> > > The obvious problem here is figuring out when your "day" started. You
> did not go to bed before midnight and get up in the morning, and so have two
> totally different time scales working in opposition. You could use when you
> went to sleep and when you got up as the start of your day. But if we are
> using sleep as a determiner of when your day started, then your nap was only
> ten minutes shorter than your "sleep for the night".
> > >
> > > Please list a single one sentence numerical answer for the question.
> > >
> > > Example: I'm up $X today honeybee.
> > >
> > > Then list all your thought processes and justify your answer in as much
> detail as you can muster.
> > >
> > > There is no right or wrong answer to the question itself; This is about
> the justifications.
> > >
> > > ~FK
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[vpFREE] Re: The Impossible Question

 

OK now this was a useful answer.

Just to be sure I'm clear, even though some of your play occurred before midnight, and before you went to sleep and got up again, you still consider it to be the same day. Interesting!

Would you have included play that occurred 25 hours before your Royal?

Let's say you gotten there at 3PM, but the Royal wasn't hit until 4PM the next day.

Just curious, so I can tabulate opinions.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Sai Sai" <gofastnismo@...> wrote:
>
>
> I consider that all one day, break even. I break everything into continuous 24 hour time periods. If I hit a royal at 8 pm and then at 8 am the next day I still consider that 2 royals in one day.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> >
> > In line with our current discussion about how people perceive their results in discreet slices of time that begin and end primarily in their own minds. I have constructed the following thought experiment. Hope you like it.
> >
> > The Impossible Question
> >
> > You're in Las Vegas for a three day vacation. It's about five o'clock in the afternoon of your second day in Vegas. You saunter into your hotel room whereupon your significant other asks you a simple question, "How are you doing today in the casino?". Your goal is to answer as truthfully as possible without confabulation or obfuscation. There is no need to sugar coat the truth or deceive, as you budgeted appropriately for the trip. You simply need to answer the question accurately. Why should this be difficult? Well, I'm getting to that.
> >
> > Here's your data:
> >
> > You arrived yesterday afternoon at 4PM and played your favorite machine from 5PM-7PM until dinner time and lost $200. After dinner you resumed play on the same machine and played for six hours straight, losing $600. However, during this six hours of continuous play on the same machine the date changed halfway through. Before midnight you were only down $200. After midnight you lost an additional $400. At 4AM you went to bed for the night and only slept 3 hours, returning to your machine at 8AM after a quick breakfast. During this play session you made back +$100 and then, still tired from your long night, decided to lie down for a quick nap, which turned into 2 hours and fifty minutes. Upon rising from your nap you again returned to your favorite machine and hit a Royal, winning $700 after losses and a tip, before your date with destiny and the impossible question your loved one was about to ask.
> >
> > "How are you doing today in the casino?"
> >
> > Here's a list of the data points:
> > 1.Afternoon first day = -200
> > 2.After dinner before midnight -200 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
> > 3.After midnight = -400 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
> > 4.After going to sleep for 3 hours = +100
> > 5.After 2 hour 50 min nap = +700
> >
> > The obvious problem here is figuring out when your "day" started. You did not go to bed before midnight and get up in the morning, and so have two totally different time scales working in opposition. You could use when you went to sleep and when you got up as the start of your day. But if we are using sleep as a determiner of when your day started, then your nap was only ten minutes shorter than your "sleep for the night".
> >
> > Please list a single one sentence numerical answer for the question.
> >
> > Example: I'm up $X today honeybee.
> >
> > Then list all your thought processes and justify your answer in as much detail as you can muster.
> >
> > There is no right or wrong answer to the question itself; This is about the justifications.
> >
> > ~FK
> >
>

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[vpFREE] Re: Progressive Play Disclaimer

 

For those of you that want to see a chart on 3 different games for bankroll try this page http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/appendix1.html. Its interesting to see it charted out.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Sai Sai" <gofastnismo@...> wrote:
>
> Whats interesting is JOB with a 1/2 percent cash back allowance has a bankroll requirement of $190k. Only with 1.5% allowance does the bankroll go down to $6180. This is with a .1 ROR. Figures compliments of the Wizards site.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> >
> > You are correct. .01 would be for a 1 in 10,000. Did you recalculate it for DBL BoPo?
> >
> > Of course the two negative games would remain infinite.
> >
> > ~FK
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lucy" <luckylucyano9@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Isn't 0.01% going to give you the 1 in 10,000 chance of going broke instead of 1 in 1000? I think you mean 0.1% which will give you a smaller bankroll requirement for FPDW, $13,215.
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Interesting question Bob.
> > > >
> > > > I can't list a recommended bankroll for 9/6 JoB because as it is a negative expectancy game, you are expected to lose whatever you bring to the table. Using the same equations I did for the M progressive would put the BR requirement at infinite. Play enough, you lose, end of story.
> > > >
> > > > I believe the reason Judy is having trouble understanding these numbers is because she hasn't crunched the numbers for the games she feels are safer. Let's do that now.
> > > >
> > > > Using the Risk of Ruin formula in VPW for quarters, to have a 1 in 1000 RoR we need the following bankrolls for these four popular games:
> > > >
> > > > FPDW = $17,620
> > > >
> > > > 5-7-T Dbl BoPo = $92,672
> > > >
> > > > NSUD = Infinite
> > > >
> > > > 9/6 JoB = Infinite
> > > >
> > > > Taken in context the $20,000 amount I stated as a BR requirement for M is very reasonable and only slightly more than what you are supposed to have to play quarter Full-Pay Deuces Wild.
> > > >
> > > > My guess is that most people are playing everything with less than recommended bankroll and therefore take issue when a reasonable BR requirement is posted for an individual game without a frame of reference handy for comparison. If I had know that this was needed I would have posted it sooner. Sorry. I thought everyone was familiar with RoR calculations.
> > > >
> > > > If you own a copy of VPW or OpVP, they both contain RoR calculations. I recommend running your game of choice though, and enter ".01" in the chance of ruin field, and then click on calculate BR requirement.
> > > >
> > > > You'll find that $20,000 is not only reasonable it's on the low side.
> > > >
> > > > ~FK
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote: And how much of a bankroll would you want to play for a "normal" $1000 royal, say on 9-6 JoB or something like that? About 4 or 5 times the royal? And Frank DID mention something like a 1 in a 1000 risk of ruin. Sounds like Frank is a cautious man. Nothing wrong with that.
> > > > >
> > > > > But don't let me stop you from putting a negative spin on it.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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RE: [vpFREE] The Impossible Question

 

Doyle Brunson, early in his marriage, learned that the answer to that
question should always be, "Oh, about even."

Cogno

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Frank
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:27 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] The Impossible Question

In line with our current discussion about how people perceive their results
in discreet slices of time that begin and end primarily in their own minds.
I have constructed the following thought experiment. Hope you like it.

The Impossible Question

You're in Las Vegas for a three day vacation. It's about five o'clock in the
afternoon of your second day in Vegas. You saunter into your hotel room
whereupon your significant other asks you a simple question, "How are you
doing today in the casino?". Your goal is to answer as truthfully as
possible without confabulation or obfuscation. There is no need to sugar
coat the truth or deceive, as you budgeted appropriately for the trip. You
simply need to answer the question accurately. Why should this be difficult?
Well, I'm getting to that.

Here's your data:

You arrived yesterday afternoon at 4PM and played your favorite machine from
5PM-7PM until dinner time and lost $200. After dinner you resumed play on
the same machine and played for six hours straight, losing $600. However,
during this six hours of continuous play on the same machine the date
changed halfway through. Before midnight you were only down $200. After
midnight you lost an additional $400. At 4AM you went to bed for the night
and only slept 3 hours, returning to your machine at 8AM after a quick
breakfast. During this play session you made back +$100 and then, still
tired from your long night, decided to lie down for a quick nap, which
turned into 2 hours and fifty minutes. Upon rising from your nap you again
returned to your favorite machine and hit a Royal, winning $700 after losses
and a tip, before your date with destiny and the impossible question your
loved one was about to ask.

"How are you doing today in the casino?"

Here's a list of the data points:
1.Afternoon first day = -200
2.After dinner before midnight -200 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
3.After midnight = -400 (part of continuous 6 hours session) 4.After going
to sleep for 3 hours = +100 5.After 2 hour 50 min nap = +700

The obvious problem here is figuring out when your "day" started. You did
not go to bed before midnight and get up in the morning, and so have two
totally different time scales working in opposition. You could use when you
went to sleep and when you got up as the start of your day. But if we are
using sleep as a determiner of when your day started, then your nap was only
ten minutes shorter than your "sleep for the night".

Please list a single one sentence numerical answer for the question.

Example: I'm up $X today honeybee.

Then list all your thought processes and justify your answer in as much
detail as you can muster.

There is no right or wrong answer to the question itself; This is about the
justifications.

~FK

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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[vpFREE] Re: The Impossible Question

 


I consider that all one day, break even. I break everything into continuous 24 hour time periods. If I hit a royal at 8 pm and then at 8 am the next day I still consider that 2 royals in one day.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
>
> In line with our current discussion about how people perceive their results in discreet slices of time that begin and end primarily in their own minds. I have constructed the following thought experiment. Hope you like it.
>
> The Impossible Question
>
> You're in Las Vegas for a three day vacation. It's about five o'clock in the afternoon of your second day in Vegas. You saunter into your hotel room whereupon your significant other asks you a simple question, "How are you doing today in the casino?". Your goal is to answer as truthfully as possible without confabulation or obfuscation. There is no need to sugar coat the truth or deceive, as you budgeted appropriately for the trip. You simply need to answer the question accurately. Why should this be difficult? Well, I'm getting to that.
>
> Here's your data:
>
> You arrived yesterday afternoon at 4PM and played your favorite machine from 5PM-7PM until dinner time and lost $200. After dinner you resumed play on the same machine and played for six hours straight, losing $600. However, during this six hours of continuous play on the same machine the date changed halfway through. Before midnight you were only down $200. After midnight you lost an additional $400. At 4AM you went to bed for the night and only slept 3 hours, returning to your machine at 8AM after a quick breakfast. During this play session you made back +$100 and then, still tired from your long night, decided to lie down for a quick nap, which turned into 2 hours and fifty minutes. Upon rising from your nap you again returned to your favorite machine and hit a Royal, winning $700 after losses and a tip, before your date with destiny and the impossible question your loved one was about to ask.
>
> "How are you doing today in the casino?"
>
> Here's a list of the data points:
> 1.Afternoon first day = -200
> 2.After dinner before midnight -200 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
> 3.After midnight = -400 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
> 4.After going to sleep for 3 hours = +100
> 5.After 2 hour 50 min nap = +700
>
> The obvious problem here is figuring out when your "day" started. You did not go to bed before midnight and get up in the morning, and so have two totally different time scales working in opposition. You could use when you went to sleep and when you got up as the start of your day. But if we are using sleep as a determiner of when your day started, then your nap was only ten minutes shorter than your "sleep for the night".
>
> Please list a single one sentence numerical answer for the question.
>
> Example: I'm up $X today honeybee.
>
> Then list all your thought processes and justify your answer in as much detail as you can muster.
>
> There is no right or wrong answer to the question itself; This is about the justifications.
>
> ~FK
>

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[vpFREE] The Impossible Question

 

In line with our current discussion about how people perceive their results in discreet slices of time that begin and end primarily in their own minds. I have constructed the following thought experiment. Hope you like it.

The Impossible Question

You're in Las Vegas for a three day vacation. It's about five o'clock in the afternoon of your second day in Vegas. You saunter into your hotel room whereupon your significant other asks you a simple question, "How are you doing today in the casino?". Your goal is to answer as truthfully as possible without confabulation or obfuscation. There is no need to sugar coat the truth or deceive, as you budgeted appropriately for the trip. You simply need to answer the question accurately. Why should this be difficult? Well, I'm getting to that.

Here's your data:

You arrived yesterday afternoon at 4PM and played your favorite machine from 5PM-7PM until dinner time and lost $200. After dinner you resumed play on the same machine and played for six hours straight, losing $600. However, during this six hours of continuous play on the same machine the date changed halfway through. Before midnight you were only down $200. After midnight you lost an additional $400. At 4AM you went to bed for the night and only slept 3 hours, returning to your machine at 8AM after a quick breakfast. During this play session you made back +$100 and then, still tired from your long night, decided to lie down for a quick nap, which turned into 2 hours and fifty minutes. Upon rising from your nap you again returned to your favorite machine and hit a Royal, winning $700 after losses and a tip, before your date with destiny and the impossible question your loved one was about to ask.

"How are you doing today in the casino?"

Here's a list of the data points:
1.Afternoon first day = -200
2.After dinner before midnight -200 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
3.After midnight = -400 (part of continuous 6 hours session)
4.After going to sleep for 3 hours = +100
5.After 2 hour 50 min nap = +700

The obvious problem here is figuring out when your "day" started. You did not go to bed before midnight and get up in the morning, and so have two totally different time scales working in opposition. You could use when you went to sleep and when you got up as the start of your day. But if we are using sleep as a determiner of when your day started, then your nap was only ten minutes shorter than your "sleep for the night".

Please list a single one sentence numerical answer for the question.

Example: I'm up $X today honeybee.

Then list all your thought processes and justify your answer in as much detail as you can muster.

There is no right or wrong answer to the question itself; This is about the justifications.

~FK

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[vpFREE] Re: Progressive Play Disclaimer

 

$69504 for 10/7 Double Bonus.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
>
> You are correct. .01 would be for a 1 in 10,000. Did you recalculate it for DBL BoPo?
>
> Of course the two negative games would remain infinite.
>
> ~FK
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lucy" <luckylucyano9@> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't 0.01% going to give you the 1 in 10,000 chance of going broke instead of 1 in 1000? I think you mean 0.1% which will give you a smaller bankroll requirement for FPDW, $13,215.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting question Bob.
> > >
> > > I can't list a recommended bankroll for 9/6 JoB because as it is a negative expectancy game, you are expected to lose whatever you bring to the table. Using the same equations I did for the M progressive would put the BR requirement at infinite. Play enough, you lose, end of story.
> > >
> > > I believe the reason Judy is having trouble understanding these numbers is because she hasn't crunched the numbers for the games she feels are safer. Let's do that now.
> > >
> > > Using the Risk of Ruin formula in VPW for quarters, to have a 1 in 1000 RoR we need the following bankrolls for these four popular games:
> > >
> > > FPDW = $17,620
> > >
> > > 5-7-T Dbl BoPo = $92,672
> > >
> > > NSUD = Infinite
> > >
> > > 9/6 JoB = Infinite
> > >
> > > Taken in context the $20,000 amount I stated as a BR requirement for M is very reasonable and only slightly more than what you are supposed to have to play quarter Full-Pay Deuces Wild.
> > >
> > > My guess is that most people are playing everything with less than recommended bankroll and therefore take issue when a reasonable BR requirement is posted for an individual game without a frame of reference handy for comparison. If I had know that this was needed I would have posted it sooner. Sorry. I thought everyone was familiar with RoR calculations.
> > >
> > > If you own a copy of VPW or OpVP, they both contain RoR calculations. I recommend running your game of choice though, and enter ".01" in the chance of ruin field, and then click on calculate BR requirement.
> > >
> > > You'll find that $20,000 is not only reasonable it's on the low side.
> > >
> > > ~FK
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote: And how much of a bankroll would you want to play for a "normal" $1000 royal, say on 9-6 JoB or something like that? About 4 or 5 times the royal? And Frank DID mention something like a 1 in a 1000 risk of ruin. Sounds like Frank is a cautious man. Nothing wrong with that.
> > > >
> > > > But don't let me stop you from putting a negative spin on it.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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[vpFREE] Re: Progressive Play Disclaimer

 

Whats interesting is JOB with a 1/2 percent cash back allowance has a bankroll requirement of $190k. Only with 1.5% allowance does the bankroll go down to $6180. This is with a .1 ROR. Figures compliments of the Wizards site.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
>
> You are correct. .01 would be for a 1 in 10,000. Did you recalculate it for DBL BoPo?
>
> Of course the two negative games would remain infinite.
>
> ~FK
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lucy" <luckylucyano9@> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't 0.01% going to give you the 1 in 10,000 chance of going broke instead of 1 in 1000? I think you mean 0.1% which will give you a smaller bankroll requirement for FPDW, $13,215.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting question Bob.
> > >
> > > I can't list a recommended bankroll for 9/6 JoB because as it is a negative expectancy game, you are expected to lose whatever you bring to the table. Using the same equations I did for the M progressive would put the BR requirement at infinite. Play enough, you lose, end of story.
> > >
> > > I believe the reason Judy is having trouble understanding these numbers is because she hasn't crunched the numbers for the games she feels are safer. Let's do that now.
> > >
> > > Using the Risk of Ruin formula in VPW for quarters, to have a 1 in 1000 RoR we need the following bankrolls for these four popular games:
> > >
> > > FPDW = $17,620
> > >
> > > 5-7-T Dbl BoPo = $92,672
> > >
> > > NSUD = Infinite
> > >
> > > 9/6 JoB = Infinite
> > >
> > > Taken in context the $20,000 amount I stated as a BR requirement for M is very reasonable and only slightly more than what you are supposed to have to play quarter Full-Pay Deuces Wild.
> > >
> > > My guess is that most people are playing everything with less than recommended bankroll and therefore take issue when a reasonable BR requirement is posted for an individual game without a frame of reference handy for comparison. If I had know that this was needed I would have posted it sooner. Sorry. I thought everyone was familiar with RoR calculations.
> > >
> > > If you own a copy of VPW or OpVP, they both contain RoR calculations. I recommend running your game of choice though, and enter ".01" in the chance of ruin field, and then click on calculate BR requirement.
> > >
> > > You'll find that $20,000 is not only reasonable it's on the low side.
> > >
> > > ~FK
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote: And how much of a bankroll would you want to play for a "normal" $1000 royal, say on 9-6 JoB or something like that? About 4 or 5 times the royal? And Frank DID mention something like a 1 in a 1000 risk of ruin. Sounds like Frank is a cautious man. Nothing wrong with that.
> > > >
> > > > But don't let me stop you from putting a negative spin on it.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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