[vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

Always like this when big egos collide.

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Posted by: gilrus47@yahoo.com
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[vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

Boy enough sparring..........

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Posted by: Rich Gardane <rgardane@yahoo.com>
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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

Bob never misses a chance to zing you on your product, and you never miss a chance to promote it.
Two pros in a p_____g contest.

P.S.
Be on the lookout for my upcoming book "Being retired for fun and Profit" . This will be followed by the sequel "Retirement, finally a job I am REALLY good at" 8-)

Just saying

A.P.

From: "Dan Paymar Dan@OptimumPlay.com [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:45:29 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

"Bob Dancer" bobdancerlasvegas

 wrote (snip):
I am not talking about Paymar's Optimum Play strategies. Those changed regularly with each edition of his book --- and every time he swore that his latest strategy was the best possible for players to use. I was talking about perfect strategy. That has not changed.

Anybody who still uses WinPoker (including me) is using a program that hasn't been altered in 15 years or so (other than adapting to newer versions of Windows). It worked well 15 years ago. It works well today.
My post did not refer to Bob or his publications at all, yet he could not resist taking another jab at me. As usual, Bob makes unsubstantiated claims about my work. I would like him to point out specifics that he refers to and how they affect expected return for players who are not as perfect as he.

Yes, back in the early days of video poker strategies (through the mid 90's) published strategies improved as the methods of generating those strategies were refined. Yet looking back at my early strategies, they were generally within 0.02% of perfect play as advertised, and most were within 0.01%. The first strategy that I published for Jacks or Better evaluates to closer than 0.01% of perfect play. I have never promoted "perfect play" and never will because for the vast majority of players, an optimized strategy will yield the best expected return.

By "optimized" I mean that some decisions that occur infrequently and have very small difference in EV are simplified. Making those decisions "perfect" makes the strategy much more complex, thus slowing down most players and causing inadvertent deviations from the strategy and costing more that the optimization.

Then Bob brags that Winpoker hasn't changed in 15 years. Is a stagnant product really something to brag about in a changing world? Sure, it still works as it did 15 years ago, but during that time Optimum Video Poker has had many improvements and innovative new features. OpVP is the only program that actually trains the user to play accurately according to the strategy chart of his/her choice.

Dan
--   Dan Paymar, developer of "Optimum Video Poker" software  Visit my web site at http://www.optimumplay.com/  "Chance favors the prepared mind" ~ Louis Pasteur


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Posted by: Albert Pearson <ehpee@rogers.com>
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[vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

"Bob Dancer" bobdancerlasvegas

 wrote (snip):
I am not talking about Paymar's Optimum Play strategies. Those changed regularly with each edition of his book --- and every time he swore that his latest strategy was the best possible for players to use. I was talking about perfect strategy. That has not changed.

Anybody who still uses WinPoker (including me) is using a program that hasn't been altered in 15 years or so (other than adapting to newer versions of Windows). It worked well 15 years ago. It works well today.
My post did not refer to Bob or his publications at all, yet he could not resist taking another jab at me. As usual, Bob makes unsubstantiated claims about my work. I would like him to point out specifics that he refers to and how they affect expected return for players who are not as perfect as he.

Yes, back in the early days of video poker strategies (through the mid 90's) published strategies improved as the methods of generating those strategies were refined. Yet looking back at my early strategies, they were generally within 0.02% of perfect play as advertised, and most were within 0.01%. The first strategy that I published for Jacks or Better evaluates to closer than 0.01% of perfect play. I have never promoted "perfect play" and never will because for the vast majority of players, an optimized strategy will yield the best expected return.

By "optimized" I mean that some decisions that occur infrequently and have very small difference in EV are simplified. Making those decisions "perfect" makes the strategy much more complex, thus slowing down most players and causing inadvertent deviations from the strategy and costing more that the optimization.

Then Bob brags that Winpoker hasn't changed in 15 years. Is a stagnant product really something to brag about in a changing world? Sure, it still works as it did 15 years ago, but during that time Optimum Video Poker has had many improvements and innovative new features. OpVP is the only program that actually trains the user to play accurately according to the strategy chart of his/her choice.

Dan
--   Dan Paymar, developer of "Optimum Video Poker" software  Visit my web site at http://www.OptimumPlay.com  "Chance favors the prepared mind" ~ Louis Pasteur

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Posted by: Dan Paymar <Dan@OptimumPlay.com>
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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

Albert Pearson writes:

<< My own strategy is to be as close to perfect as I can be on the game that I play the most 9/6 JoB  and play very solid basic strategy on all the other games that I dabble in. I'm one of those players that does not play for a living. My objective is to go to a casino, have fun, get all my rooms and meals picked up by the casino, the odd bit of entertainment, and with free play and cash back go home with the money I came with. I've been accomplishing this for a lot of years. >>

Although my objective is different--I AM mainly looking for profitable opportunities--my approach is similar.  Not being a VP specialist, I can't justify putting in the time to learn every game perfectly.  As a general rule, I have no interest in grinding out a profit from long hours of play.  It's quite rare these days for a grind to be a significantly profitable play, even taking into account points into play.  Either the stakes are too small to interest me, or the edge is so small that the wisdom of playing for higher stakes is questionable, given the bankroll that I'm willing to risk.  Like most APs, I'm more interested in generating a profit from relatively short hit and run plays, aimed at producing bounceback or other benefits.  And since the edge on such plays is pretty large and the total coin in required is limited, there's frankly not a lot of value to playing every game perfectly.  A good enough strategy is, well, good enough.

Jacks or Better being the most common game, and being a sort of baseline for a lot of other games, it's the one game that I've tried to learn to play absolutely perfectly, and fast.  (Fast according to my personal definition, while remaining accurate; I don't want to get into a contest with any of the true speed demons.)  Fortunately, Jacks or Better has probably the simplest strategy of any game.

The software and publications out there, including Bob Dancer's, typically present a range of strategies for a game, from simpler to more complex, and show the expectation for each.  The simplest or close to the simplest is nearly always just fine for my purposes.  It's rare (though there are exceptions for more exotic games) for further refinements to improve expectation by more than a couple of hundredths of a percent.

Having Jacks or Better strategy down cold, all I need to study for most other games are the differences from JOB strategy.  JOB strategy without changes actually suffices for several other games.  Then there's NSUD, for which the strategy is totally unrelated, of course.  And pseudo-NSUD or Illinois-Airport Deuces, for which NSUD strategy is very close.  I essentially never find other deuces games that interest me.  There are a couple of places where I'll play Joker Poker 2 Pair, which again is a totally unrelated strategy.  But that's about it!

What's important to me is to be fast and accurate, not to be perfect.

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Posted by: wrx144@gmail.com
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