[vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 26 MAR 2013 (skill vs luck?)

 

Luck(hands) = SD = sqrt(variance x hands)
Edge(hands) = edge x hands
%Luck(hands) = 100 x Luck/(Luck + Edge)
Luck=Edge at N0 hands, N0 = variance/edge/edge hands
For FPDW+0.25%, variance=26, edge=.01, N0 = 260,000 hands

other N0's:

west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Bank_NO1.htm

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Barry Glazer <b.glazer@...> wrote:
>
> I found these figures to be surprising, but I assume the math behind them is solid. I am interpreting the figures as saying "luck is xx% and skill is 100-xx% in contributing to your likelihood of experiencing real-life returns consistent with the theoretical return of the game after nn hands" - is that correct? If so, it's fascinating to me that the skill factor doesn't begin to exceed the luck factor until 800,000 hands have been played!
>
> My peak play rate (which I know includes about one error per hour) is about 800 hands per hour, and so that's probably well over my lifetime play range, as I think I only play 4 hours a day, for two-four days a month, and even if it's several times that, it's still many lifetimes.
>
> Even for a pro playing 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, and 1,000 hands per hour, which is 2,000,000 hands a year, getting the luck factor under 10% would take a full lifetime of play! Seems a little too tough to me, considering that there are reportedly many successful pro's, and that no one seems to know someone who plays perfectly and yet loses year after year after year, which according to these figures, should be happening to a significant percentage of such players.
>
> As I'm curious what the luck/skill factor is for other games (e.g., blackjack with card-counting producing a 0.5% edge for the player or a 1.0% edge for the player), can you (or anyone) provide a short math tutorial on how to do the calculations that generate such a chart?
>
> THANKS!
>
> --BG
> ======================
>
> > 5b. Re: Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 26 MAR 2013
> >
> > Edge can be positive or negative, one side or the other has
> > the edge, for example here's perfect 9/6 Jacks (a negative
> > edge game):
> >
> > at 1 hand, luck = 99.9%
> > at 100 hands, luck = 98.9%
> > at 1,000 hands, luck = 96.5%
> > at 2,000 hands, luck = 95.2%
> > at 10,000 hands, luck = 89.8%
> > at 100,000 hands, luck = 73.6%
> > at 200,000 hands, luck = 66.4%
> > at 400,000 hands, luck = 58.3%
> > at 800,000 hands, luck = 49.7%
> > at 2,000,000 hands, luck = 38.4%
> > at 5,000,000 hands, luck = 28.3%
> > at 10,000,000 hands, luck = 21.8%
> > at 100,000,000 hands, luck = 8.1%
> >
> > I guess you're postulating a player who plays Jacks so badly
> > that they have a -3.5% edge? That would look like this
> > (close to Bob's numbers):
> >
> > at 1 hand, luck = 99.2%
> > at 100 hands, luck = 92.7%
> > at 1,000 hands, luck = 80%
> > at 2,000 hands, luck = 73.8%
> > at 10,000 hands, luck = 55.8%
> > at 100,000 hands, luck = 28.5%
> > at 200,000 hands, luck = 22%
> > at 400,000 hands, luck = 16.6%
> > at 800,000 hands, luck = 12.4%
> > at 2,000,000 hands, luck = 8.2%
> > at 5,000,000 hands, luck = 5.3%
> > at 10,000,000 hands, luck = 3.8%
> > at 100,000,000 hands, luck = 1.2%
> >
>

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[vpFREE] Re: Luck versus Skill question for Iguana and Texas Hold'em players

 

If the average hand is 8BB, 100,000BB would be 12,500 hands. If the per hand variance is 5, the per hand SD is sqrt(5)=2.24 . The SD at 12,500 hands would be 8BB x 2.24 x sqrt(12,500) = 2000BB . A 1% edge would be 8BB/100 hands or 1000BB/12,500 hands. So that's like 67% luck and 33% skill at that point.

Radio show interview of poker pro making a living off the bot in Vegas:

pokerfuse.com/poker-podcasts/filthy-limper-poker-radio/1741/#

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:
>
> Iguana,
>
> Your rock-paper-scissors analogy is right on target. You can see the bots starting cards after the hand is over, so you would think you could easily get a handle on the bot's playing strategy/personality. At 2+2 someone said the bot has several personalities, but I saw only the LAG or maniac personality in my 3 playing sessions.
>
> With a small variance I was hoping I could determine my edge or lack of an edge within a reasonable timeframe. The variance for limit holdem should be much smaller than no limit and twice the variance of blackjack sounds reasonable.
>
> For example, after 100,000BB of action what should my standard deviation look like. If the house edge is even 1% I expect I will be losing most sessions and won't need to play very long to see that I am not good enough to play this game.
>
> The best VP left is only 99.0%
>
> Chris
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> >
> > In a lot of ways, poker is like a game of rock-paper-scissors, except it looks more like this:
> >
> > only playing top hands (TAG/ROCK/SHARK) beats Sir Calls-A-Lot (calling station, fish) (most poker rooms operate at this level)
> >
> > "raise or fold" bully beats the TAG (TAG folds too much to aggression, doesn't like to play with bullies, prefers fish)
> >
> > the maniac (LAG, Stu Ungar, WSOP, bots) plays any hand raising and calling based on the position of the second hand on his swiss watch or whatever (often they don't even check their hole cards, they are "playing their opponent", Stu Ungar liked to check just a bit of the edges like baccarat players do and then guess at his hole cards, of course if you don't know your hole cards can you possibly be giving off reliable tells?) beats the bully (bully gets in over his head then forced to fold something he should have called, all bullies will turn and run to some level of return aggression)
> >
> > the calling station beats the maniac and sanity returns, if only for a short while till the TAG comes back to the table
> >
> >
> > Extra links:
> > Ed's website: notedpokerauthority.com
> > google.com/search?q=squeezing+baccarat+cards
> > google.com/search?q=stu+ungar+movie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks to everyone for their replies. I have looked at the thread on 2+2, but sometimes the jargon is hard for me to decipher.
> > >
> > > I have only played it a few times, but I did use the strategy suggested by Iguana to call a lot and only raise on very strong hands to limit the pot size. I did well, but I know luck is a big factor over the short term.
> > >
> > > Playing a bot heads up is a completly different game from playing a full table in the poker room. No need to read players and no need for patience because you will play so many hands.
> > >
> > > The button stealing is not a problem. I put several hundred dollars in the machine and played for a long time and you can cash out after you have the button.
> > >
> > > Question for Ed: If you are the small blind and have a negative EV starting hand is there any reason to bet. Shouldn't you just fold every time?
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > LOL. Have you ever tried it? I don't think it can be that good, because if that was the case nobody would play it, at least not for long, the machines would sit empty. Sklansky plays it, but I guess he would qualify as one of those top but somewhat unknown players and maybe he's just got a gig as a shill. The early revisions had some serious flaws that caused a number of casinos to pull the machines, I assume the really bad flaws have been fixed by now. One flaw had to do with its fold frequency when you got all in from being short stacked to start. One advantage it has is that it likes to steal the button on any rebuy or cashout or freeplay or handpay or taxable and so on which a lot of players I've seen don't seem to notice. I guess it's an argument whether or not the button has the advantage in this game, but my guess is that it does.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Ed Miller <ed.miller@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have thoughts about the IGT bot. If you aren't a proven, successful
> > > > > high-stakes heads-up limit hold'em player, I expect you to get slaughtered.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:40 PM, nightoftheiguana2000 <
> > > > > nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The variance of basic blackjack is something like 2, seems like hold'em
> > > > > > should be some small multiple of that, I dunno, maybe 4 or 5, I think that
> > > > > > kind of figure has been floated before. Sklansky's twoplustwo.com might
> > > > > > have some info. Bob should get Sklansky on his radio show. Once you have
> > > > > > the variance, the SD can be approximated as half the average pot times
> > > > > > sqrt(variance x hands). Hold'em edges are usually expressed in terms of
> > > > > > BigBlinds per hour, like 1-2BB/hour. Also, in hold'em, how you play effects
> > > > > > the variance, there are plays that increase the variance and there are
> > > > > > plays that decrease it, like "pot control". The igt bot is mostly a
> > > > > > hyper-LAG and the best response to that is to call a lot but not raise a
> > > > > > lot, that might give you some ideas of how to play. Hyper-LAG itself is a
> > > > > > high variance strategy. Ed Miller, the "noted poker authority", used to be
> > > > > > on this forum, maybe he has some ideas of how to play the igt bot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Strategy discussion:
> > > > > > http://www.lvrevealed.com/articles/research/selby.html
> > > > > > http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/109/heads-up-limit/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The best EV game left at one of my local casinos may be the Head Up
> > > > > > Texas Hold'em game. How many hands will I need to play to have a good
> > > > > > estimate of the house or player edge? I guess the average pot size may be
> > > > > > required to figure the variance?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If I assume no edge (breakeven play) what is the equation to get the
> > > > > > standard deviation for profit or loss after N hands. Can I use average pot
> > > > > > size and treat it like N coin flips or does the variation in pot size
> > > > > > affect the result. If I can play this game at breakeven then I can earn
> > > > > > freeplay and comps.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I found a robot to play Heads Up on the Kongregate web site. Does anyone
> > > > > > know of other robots I can play online for practice? Is there a basic
> > > > > > strategy (like in blackjack) for playing robots heads up?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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[vpFREE] Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas LVA BLOG - 28 MAR 2013

 

Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas LVA BLOG - 28 MAR 2013

"Comments on our Indiana Trip Report"

http://jscott.lvablog.com/?p=2764

*************************************************
This link is posted for informational purposes
and doesn't constitute an endorsement or approval
of the linked article's content by vpFREE. Any
discussion of the article must be done in
accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.
*************************************************

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs

 

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013, MHS wrote:
> On 3/28/2013 10:27 PM, Sue Frillman wrote:
>> I just stayed at Wynn on the 60th floor, I guarantee there was no
>> noise.
>>
> Neat trick: "The 614-foot (187 m) high hotel has 45 floors, with the
> 2,716 rooms range in size from 640 sq ft (59 m^2 ) to the villas at
> 7,000 sq ft (650 m^2 )." --wikipedia.com

A lot of hotel/casinos practice floor inflation.

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[vpFREE] NCL upgrades

 


Two household members with balcony can upgrade to minisuite. I don't know if there are further upgrades should 2 people get minisuite or higher. Best offer I ever got was minisuite for 1 person. Presumably some higher level players do get suite offers.

Certificates are so variable there is no figuring them out. We had heavy play in Tahoe and Biloxi and have gotten offers for balcony from one and oceanview from other. Play in New orleans used to be heavy but offers went suddenly from high of minisuite to zero for me. New Orleans used to give cash too to pay for port taxes, now seems to have eliminated that, at least for us.

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[vpFREE] Re: Luck versus Skill question for Iguana and Texas Hold'em players

 

I haven't seen the game, but I play live poker, and if the post below is correct, this is classic high-level poker play - unpredictably switching playing styles. It would indeed be tough to beat, just as it is when encountered in live play, perhaps even moreso as it would be encountered randomly (presumably), while in live play, the high level player will switch styles when the table "catches on" - and an alert player will be sensitive to when a switch is coming. I actually think switching styles randomly would result in a more difficult "opponent".

--BG
================

> The word is that there are three different
> players (styles of play) in the program and you don't know
> when it switches players. Very tough player.
>

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs

 

On 3/28/2013 10:27 PM, Sue Frillman wrote:
>
>
> I just stayed at Wynn on the 60th floor, I guarantee there was no noise.
>
Neat trick: "The 614-foot (187 m) high hotel has 45 floors, with the
2,716 rooms range in size from 640 sq ft (59 m^2 ) to the villas at
7,000 sq ft (650 m^2 )." --wikipedia.com

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[vpFREE] Re: Re: Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 26 MAR 2013 (skill vs luck?)

 

I found these figures to be surprising, but I assume the math behind them is solid. I am interpreting the figures as saying "luck is xx% and skill is 100-xx% in contributing to your likelihood of experiencing real-life returns consistent with the theoretical return of the game after nn hands" - is that correct? If so, it's fascinating to me that the skill factor doesn't begin to exceed the luck factor until 800,000 hands have been played!

My peak play rate (which I know includes about one error per hour) is about 800 hands per hour, and so that's probably well over my lifetime play range, as I think I only play 4 hours a day, for two-four days a month, and even if it's several times that, it's still many lifetimes.

Even for a pro playing 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, and 1,000 hands per hour, which is 2,000,000 hands a year, getting the luck factor under 10% would take a full lifetime of play! Seems a little too tough to me, considering that there are reportedly many successful pro's, and that no one seems to know someone who plays perfectly and yet loses year after year after year, which according to these figures, should be happening to a significant percentage of such players.

As I'm curious what the luck/skill factor is for other games (e.g., blackjack with card-counting producing a 0.5% edge for the player or a 1.0% edge for the player), can you (or anyone) provide a short math tutorial on how to do the calculations that generate such a chart?

THANKS!

--BG
======================

> 5b. Re: Bob Dancer's LV Advisor Column - 26 MAR 2013
>
> Edge can be positive or negative, one side or the other has
> the edge, for example here's perfect 9/6 Jacks (a negative
> edge game):
>
> at 1 hand, luck = 99.9%
> at 100 hands, luck = 98.9%
> at 1,000 hands, luck = 96.5%
> at 2,000 hands, luck = 95.2%
> at 10,000 hands, luck = 89.8%
> at 100,000 hands, luck = 73.6%
> at 200,000 hands, luck = 66.4%
> at 400,000 hands, luck = 58.3%
> at 800,000 hands, luck = 49.7%
> at 2,000,000 hands, luck = 38.4%
> at 5,000,000 hands, luck = 28.3%
> at 10,000,000 hands, luck = 21.8%
> at 100,000,000 hands, luck = 8.1%
>
> I guess you're postulating a player who plays Jacks so badly
> that they have a -3.5% edge? That would look like this
> (close to Bob's numbers):
>
> at 1 hand, luck = 99.2%
> at 100 hands, luck = 92.7%
> at 1,000 hands, luck = 80%
> at 2,000 hands, luck = 73.8%
> at 10,000 hands, luck = 55.8%
> at 100,000 hands, luck = 28.5%
> at 200,000 hands, luck = 22%
> at 400,000 hands, luck = 16.6%
> at 800,000 hands, luck = 12.4%
> at 2,000,000 hands, luck = 8.2%
> at 5,000,000 hands, luck = 5.3%
> at 10,000,000 hands, luck = 3.8%
> at 100,000,000 hands, luck = 1.2%
>

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs

 


I just stayed at Wynn on the 60th floor, I guarantee there was no noise. We faced the airport as well, but the view was fantastic. We were at the end of the hallway and our room and stay were wonderful. Good luck!

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Glazer <b.glazer@att.net>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:58 pm
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs

Actually, you can do more about noise from maids and guests in the hallway (my favorite is the two drunks across the hall from my room who decide to have an argument in the hall at 3am!) by calling the front desk and asking security to talk to them, than you can about the club noise, which is only avoidable by choosing another hotel. Neither security nor the front desk are likely to ask the club to "turn it down" :)

I haven't been anywhere yet where you couldn't get high enough in the tower (if they have a tower, most do) to reduce the problem, but you're right that sometimes the whole building shakes. Doubt that there are any noise ordinances in Las Vegas that could be invoked.

There are ear plugs you can wear to reduce the noise too, although I haven't tried any (yet). My wife has tried some once or twice when on a trip with a girlfriend who snored loudly and "couldn't sleep without the TV on" -- but I don't think she had great success ---- but that's in-room noise, a little different. Of course, if you can feel the vibrations of the noise, it doesn't matter what you can hear!

Your best bet is to let them know when checking in (or even when making the reservation) that you are not fond of the disruption of your sleep, and to request a room that's least likely to be disturbed -- in ordinary hotels this is usually far from the elevators, to reduce hall traffic, but with much of the club sound coming through the outer walls and windows, it might be something in between the elevator and the end of the hall that's best. The desk or manager should have some idea. Also, perhaps you can time your stay for nights when the club isn't open, if there are any such nights during the week; some are just weekends.

My other pet peeve is the knock on the door when you have a do-not-disturb sign out, and when you answer, the maid says "just checking". Or, when the sign is out, they call on the phone to let you know they saw the sign (which they apparently don't respect) and are checking to see if you want your room serviced. I am very partial to hotels that respect the "do not disturb" sign by just (quietly) slipping a note under your door to let you know that they saw your sign and so you've missed having your room made up! And it used to be the case (not so much anymore) that Vegas hotels recognized that people sometimes keep odd hours, sleep in late (perhaps very late) or take naps in the afternoon, and did not disturb patrons with a sign out, but now they seem as bad as other places. Now, in many Vegas (and other) hotels, the maids seem to think it's OK to turn the TV on loudly to listen to while they're cleaning, and of course, it's usually in the room
adjacent to yours.

I have recently become more sympathetic than ever to this issue, after several restaurant visits (unrelated to Vegas and hotels) where the noise level prevented any conversation without yelling, and sometimes even then. Recently we pulled up to a new restaurant we wanted to try out, at lunch time, and even then the music was blasting so loudly IN THE PARKING LOT (and not from exterior speakers!) that we didn't even go in the front door!

--BG
================

> 8. XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs
>
> I recently read some posts on another forum about blaring
> nightclub noise at the Wynn and Encore. I have a 3 night
> invite there with freeplay through the Summer. I haven't
> stay there in about two years. After having a horrible
> experience at both Cosmo and Paris I think this is the norm
> rather than the exception. Pump up the bass at the
> nightclubs as loud as possible till about 5am. It really
> doesn't matter what part of the hotel towers you stay at.
> The sound reflects off the buildings and vibrates the
> windows. The Cosmo has one of their clubs do their evenings
> on the pool deck. The DJ screams into a microphone all
> evening or should I say all morning as their club goes to
> 4-5am also. When I stayed at Paris on my Seven Stars trip
> their nightclub has speakers outside or focused so the sound
> goes to top of the towers facing the strip. I'm sure guests
> at the Bellagio enjoy it. Since Las Vegas basis of profit is
> now clubs, food and rooms guests who complain about this get
> nothing but lip service. Las Vegas is still about
> conventions. Most of these people do their business in the
> morning and afternoon. No one is expecting Las Vegas to
> become Disney World but it has become ridiculous. You can't
> do anything about guests making noise in the hallways or
> maids banging on your door in the morning but you can do
> something about clubs.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[vpFREE] Re: Empire city Yonkers ny

 

Playing class III in Atlantic City and the tribal joints in Connecticut. But I think Foxwoods and Mohegan could install class II machines if they wanted to do something else stupid.

Surfing the internet came up with this list:
The 2 Rhode Island "racinos" are Class II.
N.Y. non-tribal joints are Class II
N.Y. tribal casinos are Class III with some Class II machines.
New Jersey is Class III
Pennsylvania Class III
Connecticut Class III
Maine Class III

The proposal in Massachusetts is for 3 Class III resort casinos and
2 slot parlors with Class II machines.

New Hampshire's proposal calls for the biggest casino complex they can get built dead nuts on the Massachusetts border with up to 5,000 slots and 150 table games. Don't seem to matter if it's class II or class III as long as it's right on the Mass. border. Some of the lawmakers want to include a bordello as long as the entrance is on the Mass border. The fox run mall's parking lot is in Massachusetts.

Vermont thinks the future is internet gambling. Your in VT and want to go to a casino then Bon Jour Quebec.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "richmontgomery138" <richmontgomery138@...> wrote:
>
> That's it. Thanks. What about the other east coast casinos like mohegan, borgata and hurrahs properties in Atlantic city
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "maclarenv12" <ahduff@> wrote:
> >
> > Rich - Yonkers/Aqa both offer an approx 92% game. It is not truly VP where 52 cards are shuffled. It is similar to a slot machine but your results are drawn from a stack of digital scratch off cards.
> >
> > If you are playing $25/pull they must love you there.
> > Your expected loss is $2/pull.
> >
> > Whether you are ahead or behind at this point....RUN from this game and never look back.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rich Montgomery <richmontgomery138@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Are you sure that empire in Yonkers uses a class two and a casino in Atlantic city also?
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

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[vpFREE] Re: XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs

 

Actually, you can do more about noise from maids and guests in the hallway (my favorite is the two drunks across the hall from my room who decide to have an argument in the hall at 3am!) by calling the front desk and asking security to talk to them, than you can about the club noise, which is only avoidable by choosing another hotel. Neither security nor the front desk are likely to ask the club to "turn it down" :)

I haven't been anywhere yet where you couldn't get high enough in the tower (if they have a tower, most do) to reduce the problem, but you're right that sometimes the whole building shakes. Doubt that there are any noise ordinances in Las Vegas that could be invoked.

There are ear plugs you can wear to reduce the noise too, although I haven't tried any (yet). My wife has tried some once or twice when on a trip with a girlfriend who snored loudly and "couldn't sleep without the TV on" -- but I don't think she had great success ---- but that's in-room noise, a little different. Of course, if you can feel the vibrations of the noise, it doesn't matter what you can hear!

Your best bet is to let them know when checking in (or even when making the reservation) that you are not fond of the disruption of your sleep, and to request a room that's least likely to be disturbed -- in ordinary hotels this is usually far from the elevators, to reduce hall traffic, but with much of the club sound coming through the outer walls and windows, it might be something in between the elevator and the end of the hall that's best. The desk or manager should have some idea. Also, perhaps you can time your stay for nights when the club isn't open, if there are any such nights during the week; some are just weekends.

My other pet peeve is the knock on the door when you have a do-not-disturb sign out, and when you answer, the maid says "just checking". Or, when the sign is out, they call on the phone to let you know they saw the sign (which they apparently don't respect) and are checking to see if you want your room serviced. I am very partial to hotels that respect the "do not disturb" sign by just (quietly) slipping a note under your door to let you know that they saw your sign and so you've missed having your room made up! And it used to be the case (not so much anymore) that Vegas hotels recognized that people sometimes keep odd hours, sleep in late (perhaps very late) or take naps in the afternoon, and did not disturb patrons with a sign out, but now they seem as bad as other places. Now, in many Vegas (and other) hotels, the maids seem to think it's OK to turn the TV on loudly to listen to while they're cleaning, and of course, it's usually in the room
adjacent to yours.

I have recently become more sympathetic than ever to this issue, after several restaurant visits (unrelated to Vegas and hotels) where the noise level prevented any conversation without yelling, and sometimes even then. Recently we pulled up to a new restaurant we wanted to try out, at lunch time, and even then the music was blasting so loudly IN THE PARKING LOT (and not from exterior speakers!) that we didn't even go in the front door!

--BG
================

> 8. XVP: Room noise from Las Vegas nightclubs
>
> I recently read some posts on another forum about blaring
> nightclub noise at the Wynn and Encore. I have a 3 night
> invite there with freeplay through the Summer. I haven't
> stay there in about two years. After having a horrible
> experience at both Cosmo and Paris I think this is the norm
> rather than the exception. Pump up the bass at the
> nightclubs as loud as possible till about 5am. It really
> doesn't matter what part of the hotel towers you stay at.
> The sound reflects off the buildings and vibrates the
> windows. The Cosmo has one of their clubs do their evenings
> on the pool deck. The DJ screams into a microphone all
> evening or should I say all morning as their club goes to
> 4-5am also. When I stayed at Paris on my Seven Stars trip
> their nightclub has speakers outside or focused so the sound
> goes to top of the towers facing the strip. I'm sure guests
> at the Bellagio enjoy it. Since Las Vegas basis of profit is
> now clubs, food and rooms guests who complain about this get
> nothing but lip service. Las Vegas is still about
> conventions. Most of these people do their business in the
> morning and afternoon. No one is expecting Las Vegas to
> become Disney World but it has become ridiculous. You can't
> do anything about guests making noise in the hallways or
> maids banging on your door in the morning but you can do
> something about clubs.
>

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