Re: [vpFREE] Re: Stations March Mailer - YUCKY!!

Just got mine today. Just made President for the first time this month. My
play has been steadily increasing from one month to the next. This is the
crappiest mailer I've received since I first turned Platinum!

4x $30 days, plus two mystery days.

Lots of point multiplier days:
2 6x Days
3 5x Days
2 4x Days
6 3x Days

Oh yeah...I only got 1 dining coupon for the month instead of two.

Play went WAY up, offers went WAY down. Actually, my offers basically got
HALVED! :-(

Guess this is the "price" we pay to be able to change our points for "free
play."

THIS STINKS!!

From: staninnv <arnot@cox.net>
Reply-To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 01:32:13 -0000
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Stations March Mailer

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , "vpFae"
<vpFae@...> wrote:
>
> If your March Stations locals mailer is different than you
> expected, it may be because they have changed the criteria for
> mailers. They are now using theo rather than base points to
> determine mailer levels.
===============================
Our mailers came today......They're a joke! With $350,000 coin-in for
the previous 90 days, playing their best full point game of 8/5 Bonus.
Something else is going on here? My wife's play was $208,000 for the
90 day qualifying period and she got double the free play, playing
next to me on the very same 8/5 bonus machines. Oh, did I mention that
my free play went from 7 x $50 plus five mystery days to 3 x $15 and
three mystery money days. It remains to be seen what the total for the
month will be. There are 2 6x points, 2 5x points, 2 4x points and 6
3x points days. I'm thinking it's time to move on to a new home
casino? Most of you have already done that back in '04 when the points
were halved! I'll also do some checking with marketing to see if this
mailer is correct. Something ain't right at GVR!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and don't try to say, maybe you were ahead cuz I wasn't. I just
hit two royals yesterday after going 56 days without one. My wife's
last royal was 12/1 so it's been bloody. We gamble for fun, not profit
and I can afford the loss but there's much better deals out there me
thinks?

I'm pissed!

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RE: [vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)


Paladin wrote: Also, and I keep forgetting to mention this, you're
probably looking at 2:1 on points and a low theo on the game. It's not
going to be that great a deal. You're going to have quite a few days
where you lose 20% to the drop.

If you're saying that it will take $2 to earn 1 point, that's not the
case. I suspect you're right about the theo, but if you compare this
game with a low theo or 8/5 Bonus with a slightly higher theo, give me
this game every time. Assuming the game does last awhile (which I
doubt), doing all of your play on 5x and 6x days (which are plentiful on
a Chairman calendar), it doesn't matter that much if the monthly mailers
are only a few hundred dollars. You only need to play 5 hours a month to
maintain Chairman status, and with $200+ per hour expected value, even
with no mailers, this isn't so bad.

Yes there will be expensive days. There will also be days where you get
$40K deuces on the top line. That's the nature of a high variance game.
If you're sufficiently bankrolled (financially and psychologically),
it's not a big deal.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

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[vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:
>
> Tral wrote: $12/hr!!! With the very real possibility of losing tens of
> thousands!!!
>
> How can this possibly be worth ANYONE's while???
>
>
> Would the fact that you are assuming 1x points and I've only played it
> under 7x point conditions change your mind any about anybody's "while"?
> At $50,000 coin-in per hour, it only took 30 hours to become Chairman on
> both Shirley's a my card during 7x points --- plus we each have enough
> points that we'll probably cash $1,500 a piece in the point challenge.
> Plus I played some more because it was still a $300 per hour game. On
> $1,800,000 total play, our expected win was $11,000, plus $3,000 from
> the point challenge, plus three months of chairman mailers. Fortunately
> we were able to collect considerably more than that. Someone said this
> was a thin edge. Clearly they are more adept at criticizing than they
> are at figuring out the mathematics of the play. Playing a 100.62% game
> is a MUCH HIGHER edge than most $100 per hand games out there. Plus
> perfect play is considerable easier on this game than on regular NSU.

Bob is eminently correct on all accounts.

In point of fact, the $5 machine has been virtually locked up 24/7 for a
> week (not by me). A few people have been switching back and forth and
> nobody else can get on it. Now it's been posted on vpFREE, that's the
> further kiss of death. I predict one more week before the pay schedule
> is downgraded, with the smarter bet being the under rather than the
> over.

Ummm, not so sure here...very easy to burn though a couple of hundred
thou at this level. We'll see how much play they get after the 29th,
the last day of the points challenge. It is a fun game to play,
though. Sounds like full points, they'd probably make it half points
first.

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[vpFREE] Re: Which approach is better? (reposted with correction)


Very good point about the short pay nickel multi-play games. That's
exactly what we've run into. In the past we've only stayed in places
on the strip, so 9/6 nickel multi-play double bonus is what my wife
has been playing. Depending on which strip casino we're staying in, I
usually play quarter single line 7/5 or 8/5 bonus poker.

This time we'll be staying at Red Rock, so I'm practicing 10/7 double
bonus and hoping my wife will find better nickel multiline DB pay
tables there. Maybe the 9/7 that you mentioned.

That's another good reason for me to stick with single-line quarters.
Thanks for your comments.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jack LaMonica" <jalamon@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your views.
> >
> > I guess I have both objectives; to play the full day without losing
> my
> > daily bankroll and to end up with the best result I can.
> >
> > The last few trips to Vegas my wife has done better on multi-play
> > nickels than I've done on single play quarters. Like you said the
> > swings do seem to be smaller for her because she tends to hit good
> > hands more often with the multi-play games. She also got dealt 4
> aces
> > on double bonus twice on the same day last trip, so her winnings
> ended
> > up good too.
> >
> > I guess what got me thinking about this was that ever since I
> started
> > playing quarters I haven't hit a Royal. When I used to play
> > multi-play nickels, I think I hit a Royal on every Vegas trip. I've
> > come close with some dealt 4 card royals on single line quarters,
> but
> > didn't hit it on the draw. Exciting though to get close. I thought
> > maybe because of our relatively low daily bankroll, that the lower
> > number of hands I see using quarters might be a factor.
> >
> > Your fourth point is key though. I switched to quarter single play
> > because of the exciting possibility of a big score with a Royal.
> The
> > thrill of that possibility has me enjoying single line more, so
> that's
> > what I'll stick with. Thanks for your help.
>
> I also doubt that your wife is playing paytables that are as good as
> the ones you find in your single-line quarter play. Multiline VP is
> almost always short-pay these days, and denominations below .25 are
> often BRUTALLY short-pay. I can't think of anyplace in Vegas where
> she could be playing FULLPAY (10/7) Double Bonus for nickels on a
> multiline game, but there are dozens of places where you could be
> playing 10/7 .25 on a single-line.
>
> So the difference is much more stark: you pay a heavy penalty for
> playing that $1.25/hand on short-pay nickel multiline instead of
> fullpay single-line. To illustrate: playing 9/7 DB (which would
> actually be a pretty decent game, on a relative basis, for nickels)
> returns about 99%; playing 10/7 DB is essentially breakeven
> (100.15%). If you play a modest 600 hands/hour, then the 9/7 DB loses
> $7.50/hr while the 10/7 breaks even. If the nickel paytable is 9/6,
> then the loss is $15/hr.
>
> The shorter wait for a big hand is what makes multi-line games so
> much fun; the casinos have perceived that, and penalize players by
> raping the paytables on multi-liners. If you are playing short-pay
> multi-line games when a fullpay single-line alternative is available
> for the same amount of coin-in per hand, then you are paying heavily
> for that fun.
>

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[vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
> <tralfamidorgooglycrackers@> wrote:
>
> > I actually can't imagine why ANYONE would play this game, with its
> > insane variance/BR requirements, when the same or better net result
> > could be obtained playing, say, $1 DB. An EV of 100.02 means that
> > TWO WHOLE DOLLARS is earned for every $10,000 slammed through the
> > machine (inclusive of cashback). That same 10K through a $1 10/7 DB
> > machine would earn you $20; through .25 FPDW would earn you $70.
> > Granted, it wouldn't take as long to put that 10K through the MS,
> > but still....
> >
> > Best case scenario: $5 MS NSUD---$100/hand
> > Earnings/hand: $0.02 (with perfect play)
> > I defy anyone to exceed 600 hands/hr without error, therefore:
> >
> > $12/hr!!! With the very real possibility of losing tens of
> > thousands!!!
> >
> > How can this possibly be worth ANYONE's while???
> >
>
> Multipliers and promotions.

Also, and I keep forgetting to mention this, you're probably looking
at 2:1 on points and a low theo on the game. It's not going to be that
great a deal. You're going to have quite a few days where you lose 20%
to the drop.

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[vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vidi0t" <vid.geo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Bob Dancer's Risk of Ruin calculator in his Video Poker For Winners
> program shows that there is a 50% chance of a $898180.71 losing streak
> playing all 4 hands at $5 per hand figuring in 0.1% cashback. On 7X
> point days the 50% bankroll requirement drops to $26493. 5X - $40462,
> 3X - $79892 (All assuming the virtually impossible perfect play.)

I've played it a little bit but not recently...I guess it wouldn't be
too much to ask for a 5-play version lol...

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[vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

> Would the fact that you are assuming 1x points and I've only played it
> under 7x point conditions change your mind any about
anybody's "while"?

No, as a matter of fact, it wouldn't, because it's pretty naive to
think that Stations would tolerate very much play under these
conditions (ONLY 7X point days). The play's death will be brought about
by APs, not VpFree. Its mention on VpFree is of academic interest only
to all but a tiny, tiny fraction of those who read these posts.

In fact, Bob, you seem to be able to play under conditions and with
edges that would get the vast majority of us civilians tossed out in
short order. That couldn't be because the casinos think that you don't
really have an edge--they are smarter than that. Therefore, what do
they think when Big Bob sits down at one of their machines and starts
stuffing in Benjamins? I'll hazard a guess: it ain't "Oh, goody!" So
since the casinos have been throwing us mere mortals out for sins such
as playing dollar 10/7 only on 3X point days, or trolling for cashback
with a positive EV of $15/hr, one has to ask the question: why do they
tolerate YOU?

The rest of us rank-and-file, even if we had the bankroll (2 million
clams or so) to make this play viable, would have to assume (and
rightly so) that the play would be aborted in short order, because
massive play such as this attracts attention, and very soon some casino
watchdog will start barking at you, then pee on your leg (OK, metaphor
carried too far). So: this play is only worthwhile if you assume you
will be able to keep it up for a reasonable amount of time (and that
Stations won't do something like make you ineligible for multiple point
promos). So I'm curious: what gives YOU that assurance?

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Their getting viscous in Reno

Thanks, I was getting worried. Was telling hubby tonight that maybe we should stick to Tahoe. I feel safe to see Reno now:)

mklpryy24 <mklpryy24@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...>
wrote:
>
> Is it really that bad?? We are going to Reno for the first time
bad I Spring.

F*&)k NO !!!!
Great casinos, rooms, games, FOOD. going for 30yrs, will be at
Atlantis 03/23.

go to vpfree-reno & read the trip reports.

Somebody posted an old USA Today story about crime in downtown
vegas ,how it wound up as a negative story about reno was the story
was being used to show calif. native casinos was a better play.
No, not even close.

Other than a few "advantage" players hustling free play, no body has
had a problem with a casino about their play. I have done well in
RENO with no attitude.

Atlantis & the Pepp have sent free frooms ,free play, food credit
offers this week. I will stay at the Atlantis but I will go get my
free play & use my food credit at the Pepp on my march trip. Oceano
is fantistic!

You will luv playing in Reno.

M J

> ***********************************************************

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





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RE: [vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

Tral wrote: $12/hr!!! With the very real possibility of losing tens of
thousands!!!

How can this possibly be worth ANYONE's while???

Would the fact that you are assuming 1x points and I've only played it
under 7x point conditions change your mind any about anybody's "while"?
At $50,000 coin-in per hour, it only took 30 hours to become Chairman on
both Shirley's a my card during 7x points --- plus we each have enough
points that we'll probably cash $1,500 a piece in the point challenge.
Plus I played some more because it was still a $300 per hour game. On
$1,800,000 total play, our expected win was $11,000, plus $3,000 from
the point challenge, plus three months of chairman mailers. Fortunately
we were able to collect considerably more than that. Someone said this
was a thin edge. Clearly they are more adept at criticizing than they
are at figuring out the mathematics of the play. Playing a 100.62% game
is a MUCH HIGHER edge than most $100 per hand games out there. Plus
perfect play is considerable easier on this game than on regular NSU.

In point of fact, the $5 machine has been virtually locked up 24/7 for a
week (not by me). A few people have been switching back and forth and
nobody else can get on it. Now it's been posted on vpFREE, that's the
further kiss of death. I predict one more week before the pay schedule
is downgraded, with the smarter bet being the under rather than the
over.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

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[vpFREE] Re: GVR $1,$2,$5 NSU Deuces MultiStrike (100.02% with the 0.1% cashback)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

> I actually can't imagine why ANYONE would play this game, with its
> insane variance/BR requirements, when the same or better net result
> could be obtained playing, say, $1 DB. An EV of 100.02 means that
> TWO WHOLE DOLLARS is earned for every $10,000 slammed through the
> machine (inclusive of cashback). That same 10K through a $1 10/7 DB
> machine would earn you $20; through .25 FPDW would earn you $70.
> Granted, it wouldn't take as long to put that 10K through the MS,
> but still....
>
> Best case scenario: $5 MS NSUD---$100/hand
> Earnings/hand: $0.02 (with perfect play)
> I defy anyone to exceed 600 hands/hr without error, therefore:
>
> $12/hr!!! With the very real possibility of losing tens of
> thousands!!!
>
> How can this possibly be worth ANYONE's while???
>

Multipliers and promotions.

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[vpFREE] Re: Which approach is better? (reposted with correction)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jack LaMonica" <jalamon@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your views.
>
> I guess I have both objectives; to play the full day without losing
my
> daily bankroll and to end up with the best result I can.
>
> The last few trips to Vegas my wife has done better on multi-play
> nickels than I've done on single play quarters. Like you said the
> swings do seem to be smaller for her because she tends to hit good
> hands more often with the multi-play games. She also got dealt 4
aces
> on double bonus twice on the same day last trip, so her winnings
ended
> up good too.
>
> I guess what got me thinking about this was that ever since I
started
> playing quarters I haven't hit a Royal. When I used to play
> multi-play nickels, I think I hit a Royal on every Vegas trip. I've
> come close with some dealt 4 card royals on single line quarters,
but
> didn't hit it on the draw. Exciting though to get close. I thought
> maybe because of our relatively low daily bankroll, that the lower
> number of hands I see using quarters might be a factor.
>
> Your fourth point is key though. I switched to quarter single play
> because of the exciting possibility of a big score with a Royal.
The
> thrill of that possibility has me enjoying single line more, so
that's
> what I'll stick with. Thanks for your help.

I also doubt that your wife is playing paytables that are as good as
the ones you find in your single-line quarter play. Multiline VP is
almost always short-pay these days, and denominations below .25 are
often BRUTALLY short-pay. I can't think of anyplace in Vegas where
she could be playing FULLPAY (10/7) Double Bonus for nickels on a
multiline game, but there are dozens of places where you could be
playing 10/7 .25 on a single-line.

So the difference is much more stark: you pay a heavy penalty for
playing that $1.25/hand on short-pay nickel multiline instead of
fullpay single-line. To illustrate: playing 9/7 DB (which would
actually be a pretty decent game, on a relative basis, for nickels)
returns about 99%; playing 10/7 DB is essentially breakeven
(100.15%). If you play a modest 600 hands/hour, then the 9/7 DB loses
$7.50/hr while the 10/7 breaks even. If the nickel paytable is 9/6,
then the loss is $15/hr.

The shorter wait for a big hand is what makes multi-line games so
much fun; the casinos have perceived that, and penalize players by
raping the paytables on multi-liners. If you are playing short-pay
multi-line games when a fullpay single-line alternative is available
for the same amount of coin-in per hand, then you are paying heavily
for that fun.

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[vpFREE] Re: Which approach is better? (reposted with correction)

Thanks for your views.

I guess I have both objectives; to play the full day without losing my
daily bankroll and to end up with the best result I can.

The last few trips to Vegas my wife has done better on multi-play
nickels than I've done on single play quarters. Like you said the
swings do seem to be smaller for her because she tends to hit good
hands more often with the multi-play games. She also got dealt 4 aces
on double bonus twice on the same day last trip, so her winnings ended
up good too.

I guess what got me thinking about this was that ever since I started
playing quarters I haven't hit a Royal. When I used to play
multi-play nickels, I think I hit a Royal on every Vegas trip. I've
come close with some dealt 4 card royals on single line quarters, but
didn't hit it on the draw. Exciting though to get close. I thought
maybe because of our relatively low daily bankroll, that the lower
number of hands I see using quarters might be a factor.

Your fourth point is key though. I switched to quarter single play
because of the exciting possibility of a big score with a Royal. The
thrill of that possibility has me enjoying single line more, so that's
what I'll stick with. Thanks for your help.

Regards,
Jack

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Albert Pearson <ehpee@...> wrote:
>
> It all depends on your objectives.
>
> 1st. Long term it makes no difference, your results
> will be identical after 23 gazillion hands.
>
> 2nd. If your objective is to get the longest play
> without losing your daily bankroll, go with the nickel
> machines. The swings will be smaller.
>
> 3rd. If your objective is the big score, go with the
> single line quarters. On multi-play nickels your only
> big hit can only come with a dealt royal, on quarters
> it comes with any Royal .
>
> 4th. The ever elusive enjoyment factor. What do you
> enjoy playing the most ?
>
> Have fun
>
> Regards
> A.P.
>
> --- Jack LaMonica <jalamon@...> wrote:
>
> > I have a question about playing 5-play nickel VP
> > versus single play
> > quarter. With a daily bankroll to support 6 hours of
> > play per day
> > using the same bet amount, $1.25 per play, for the
> > same games having
> > the same pay tables, which might have better
> > results? Is it better to
> > go with 5-play nickels and see more hands, or would
> > single play quarter
> > with a higher return on winning hands be better? I
> > tend to play
> > single play quarters and my wife likes multi-play
> > nickel VP. I've
> > wondered if there's an advantage to one approach
> > over the other and
> > would like to hear opinions.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your answers.
>

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