RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

Then what does "to obtain an ADVANTAGE at playing any game" in NRS 465.075 mean?

Sent from my iPhone

__._,_.___
Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (17)

.

__,_._,___

RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

007 wrote: I don't believe the expected value of the game is relevant to the law.

 
Nor do I.

Bob Nersesian has spoken about this several times on Gambling with an Edge. When it comes to gambling issues, Nersesian is very knowledgeable. I would trust his "gut feel" for how a court is going to act.

Whatever you think of me, the Nersesian shows have considerable information in them for gamblers. The shows are archived on bobdancer.com and you can access them for free.

 








__._,_.___
Posted by: Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (16)

.

__,_._,___

Re: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

Nordo123@aol.com wrote:

>To Bob Dancer and others, Let me make this perfectly clear (remember Richard Nixon) I am not in favor of anyone using electronic devices or "cheat sheets" at video poker. Be cool you don't want the casino to know or guess anything is out of the ordinary. For your own sake and the sake of the video poker community please just use your own brain. Now to the law point. Two new casinos are opening up casino A and casino B. Both casinos have 16-10 2's and both casinos return 0.25% cash-back. Casino A also has a $10 sign up bonus after playing $10 through. You are hopping to get "offers" from both places but nothing is stated. At casino A you see a player use an electronic device to play perfectly. He puts only $10 through. He goes to the players club to collect his $10. According to Bob Dancer that player committed a crime. Someone else puts $100,000 through. He is not a criminal. Hugh? In casino B neither player would be a criminal. Also what if either casino A or B decided after seeing
>the player that put $100,000 through (let's pretend for a minute that he is a big winner) to "make him a criminal" by giving all players an extra 0.05% cash back. Would he be facing jail time and a felony conviction because the casino decided it didn't like him? Could the casino get the money back that he won? In my opinion the law is for the game only, not the game and the extras. Again at the risk of repeating my self please players don't use electronic devices. Does any lawyer know the answer to these situations?
>
>Sent from my iPhone

I don't believe the expected value of the game is relevant to the law.

__._,_.___
Posted by: 007 <007@embarqmail.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (15)

.

__,_._,___

RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

To Bob Dancer and others, Let me make this perfectly clear (remember Richard Nixon) I am not in favor of anyone using electronic devices or "cheat sheets" at video poker. Be cool you don't want the casino to know or guess anything is out of the ordinary. For your own sake and the sake of the video poker community please just use your own brain. Now to the law point. Two new casinos are opening up casino A and casino B. Both casinos have 16-10 2's and both casinos return 0.25% cash-back. Casino A also has a $10 sign up bonus after playing $10 through. You are hopping to get "offers" from both places but nothing is stated. At casino A you see a player use an electronic device to play perfectly. He puts only $10 through. He goes to the players club to collect his $10. According to Bob Dancer that player committed a crime. Someone else puts $100,000 through. He is not a criminal. Hugh? In casino B neither player would be a criminal. Also what if either casino A or B decided after seeing the player that put $100,000 through (let's pretend for a minute that he is a big winner) to "make him a criminal" by giving all players an extra 0.05% cash back. Would he be facing jail time and a felony conviction because the casino decided it didn't like him? Could the casino get the money back that he won? In my opinion the law is for the game only, not the game and the extras. Again at the risk of repeating my self please players don't use electronic devices. Does any lawyer know the answer to these situations?

Sent from my iPhone

__._,_.___
Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (14)

.

__,_._,___

RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

Nordo wrote --- and then repeated --- if using device for 16-10 2's or 9-6 JOB, etc.. you do not obtain an advantage, you are still at a disadvantage. You still have negative expectancy.


I disagree strongly. If you are playing NSU (99.73%) with a 0.30% slot club and mailers and comps, you ARE playing with an advantage if you play the game well. If you play the game inaccurately you easily might be playing with a disadvantage. A strategy (in whatever format) CAN make a difference between playing with or without an advantage. If that strategy is electronic in format it IS illegal in Nevada.

It is only low-limit players who are offered games with an edge off the top. Players who play for higher stakes need to consider the slot club, the mailers, the promotions, etc.

Any player with a reasonable expectation of earning $100,000 annually or more plays almost exclusively games that are less than 100% for the game itself --- but these players know that slot clubs, promotions, mailers and other goodies add real benefits that can be turned into cash. (Sometimes you earn comps which are convertible into cash.)

You may not think $500 or more in free play a month is the same as cash --- and technically it isn't --- but it's damn close.  Drawings add to your equity --- but you need to consider how much it costs to earn drawing tickets. These are relevant considerations in choosing which game to play and how much it's worth.

Someone in this thread posted that memorizing a strategy isn't that tough. Maybe yes. Maybe no. People come with different levels of mental agility. Most people memorize better at age 30 than they do at age 60. If you only play one game, it's easier to memorize it than if you play seven different games at different casinos. If you play the same game four times a week it's easier to memorize than if you only play one weekend every five months. Memorizing a "basic" strategy is a lot easier than memorizing an "advanced" strategy. Memorizing a strategy with a 4,000-coin royal is a lot simpler than memorizing one with adjustments for one or more progressives. Players who refresh their memories regularly before playing play at a higher level than players who don't.

Bob

__._,_.___
Posted by: Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (13)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's LVA - 29 JUL 2014

 

Here's my two cents, coming from a non-professional who takes video poker as a very serious hobby, but is still learning the game.

I'll use the example of a manufacturing facility (you could probably use a computer program too).  It is extremely difficult to pump out product that is 100% perfect all the time, even more so when starting up.  That doesn't mean that the owner of the plant doesn't want to put out 100% perfect product, but you must have processes in place to make sure that you are either moving towards perfection or maintaining at as close to perfect as possible.  I think that I kind of what Bob is alluding to.  In a manufacturing plant, you get new inexperienced employees, new equipment, ect. . . so that even though you had a 99.999% success rate a month ago, that number can drift down and you must continually strive to improve or maintain (in the case of video poker, your memory fades).  Maybe you can pump out more product if you don't worry about a 0.01% failure rate (the cost of replacement for a failed product and unhappy customer is less than the amount of money spent overcoming that 0.01%).  You must run the numbers under your own set of conditions to figure out gives you the most profit.  I think here is where Bob would say that it takes less money to overcome the 0.01% than to deal with this failure rate.   

A business has to constantly evaluate and invest in new technologies and innovations to stay ahead of the game.  In the case of video poker, these new technologies and innovations may come in the form of new training software.  Therefore, anyone wishing to stay ahead of the game needs to know what is available and what new edge it may give them.  If a players "business plan" strictly relies on single play 10/7 double bonus, you may be able to get by with "outdated" software such as winpoker (which in my opinion is a simple, and very strong tool that I use even though other software with more bells and whistles is available).  Let's face it, single play 10/7 hasn't changed in 30+?? years.  Investment in newer software such as Video Poker for Winners gives you tools that allow you to perfect strategies for newer games or different ways to evaluate each game (unfortunately I haven't invested in any of Dan's software yet so I can't make statements about it).  Each investment gives you a broader toolset to attack with.     

Bob and Dan are both selling roadmaps as wha stated.  Both believe their roadmap will get you where you want to go the best way possible.  Ultimately you should not rely on the map salesman, but your own evaluation of those maps under your own situations to figure out which is best.  Part of the "fun" for me with video poker as a hobby has been gathering as much information as possible, evaluating the tools available, and making decisions based upon experimentation as to what set of tools and information works best for me.  After this comes "more fun" field testing of strategies under real conditions in a casino.  For a hobbiest, I think I've been pretty hardcore in my approach, but I'm sure I could do an even better job of learning the game.  If someone relies on an income from video poker, it is evident to me that that person has to make their own "business plan" based upon their own research, experimentation, and business environment (e.g. casinos played, promotions offered, etc. . ) and not rely on upon any single source to provide that business plan.  I would not want to turn professional unless I knew I possessed the skills to confidently and independently evaluate each unique situation presented.  Ultimately, we are all going different places and should not rely on the same map to get us there.   

__._,_.___
Posted by: fhbarneb@yahoo.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (15)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

You make an interesting point straub. However I can counter in 2 ways - 1. I know how to play 9-6 JOB perfectly anyway so I gain nothing. 2. Less of a disadvantage is not an advantage in most games you would still be at a disadvantage. To gain an advantage -does the law mean over yourself or over the casino? Any lawyer out there know the answer. Anyway I would never use electronic help. Rhetorical question: why would anyone take a chance of letting the casino know you are using "electronic "help"?

Sent from my iPhone

__._,_.___
Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (12)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 



You make an interesting point: But the device with a correct strategy will get you to a greater expected return than if you played the same hands by the seat of your pants and ran the risk of holding the wrong cards. So the device gives you an advantage that you wouldn't have had otherwise without it. That's why you're using it, isn't it?  It's essentially an insurance policy that you wouldn't have without it (emanating from an electronic/hardware device)

More importantly ask yourself this:  Isn't less of a disadvantage, an advantage?


__._,_.___
Posted by: straub@shore.net
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (11)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] Re: CoachVee & Hedy book

 

Hi Gang:
Thanks so much, Linda. Your agent fee is in the mail! LOL!!
Regards,
CoachVee & Hedy
 
In a message dated 8/4/2014 5:06:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:
Just bought a new book by Coachvee (Tom) and wife Hedy, all about their hilarious adventures while traveling and unexpectedly turning bad things into something good.  Lots of stories set in casinos and casino resorts too, of course.  It is available for the Kindle, but actually if you have an IPod or IPhone or IPad or other tablet with Kindle app you can download it.

book is $4.99. 

Amazon.com: Something Bad Happen, Please!: The fine art of turning life's little glitches into a bounty of riches eBook: Tom Valledolmo, Hedy Valledolmo: Kindle Store)

Congratulations to Tom and Hedy for writing the book.

__._,_.___
Posted by: CoachVee@aol.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

I will repeat again if using device for 16-10 2's or 9-6 JOB, etc.. you do not obtain an advantage, you are still at a disadvantage. You still have negative expectancy.

Sent from my iPhone

__._,_.___
Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (10)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] acvpp] Oops!

 

I would consider this VP related – very much so!!!!!!
 
------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/
 
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 1:12 PM
Subject: [SPAM][acvpp] Oops!
 
 

Hi Gang:
Earlier today I posted a notice to the three video poker groups to which we belong about the book Hedy and I had completed. Unfortunately, I neglected to label it XVP. Sorry about that.
Regards,
CoachVee & Hedy
 

__._,_.___
Posted by: "Queen of Comps" <queenofcomps@cox.net>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)

.

__,_._,___

Re: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

It would be hard to argue that your I-phone is designed to take advantage of a video poker machine.

I could see some overzealous prosecutor charging somebody under that statute, but I can't see a jury handing over a conviction
because you were looking at a chart on your phone. If you were running one of the programs that actually analyze a specific hand, that would be another story. At least that is my opinion.

A.P.

From: "straub@shore.net [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2014 5:06:18 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 
C said:
 
 "... in my reading of the statute [only using a rendering/image (JPG) of the strategy chart or a PDF or scan not directly created on the device] this would not qualify as using software to gain an advantage. But I'm curious what others would think."
 
That's possibly true, but someone could argue you are using JPEG or PDF software. But even assuming that it is not created with software on the device, still I'm not sure how  the 'I'm-not-using-software' argument gets you off the hook since the statute states in summary:
 
It is unlawful for any person to use any electronic, electrical, or hardware device designed to obtain an advantage at playing any game. I don't see how using a cell phone, or I-pad-like device (which is electrical/electronic hardware) would not fall into the category above.
 
Next C states: "I certainly don't want to get stuck carrying 80+ cards of strategy with me everywhere".
 
Well the statute does not have a loophole that if you have to carry 80+ cards of strategy, then the statute does not apply to you ;).
 
 
Next, saysitsme says:
 
"As regarding the law I think it would be legal in Nevada to use electronic help on 16-10 2's, Pickem Poker, 9-6 Jacks, Multi Strike 9-6 Jacks etc... as you do not gain a mathematical edge using the devise. However it would be illegal to use the devise for 10-7 double bonus, 10-6 double-double bonus, full pay 2's and progressives where return with perfect play is over 100%."
 
Where does it say the strategy using the electrical electronic device has to increase your advantage to over 100% before it becomes illegal? All it says is: " ... to obtain an advantage at playing any game … .
 
I guess if you had a lousy electronic based strategy card that would actually cause mistakes relative to the best strategy that could create a disadvantage for the player. Then I think you could argue you are innocent because you ere playing at a disadvantage. But not only would have to hire a lawyer but also probably also someone with Bob Dancer's reputation to show a judge or jury that this electronically derived/rendered strategy was so flawed that no advantage could be gained by using it. And we all know Bob get's the big hourly bucks as an expert in video poker and to be an expert witness and likely would relish an assignment like this.
 
saysitsme also says: "A question for the last poster why do you have to disclose that you have been arrested? An arrest is not a conviction. Innocent until proven guilty."
 
Many job applications ask if you have ever been arrested. If you say no when the truth is you have been you could be in trouble for lying about it. If you say I have been arrested and they have an equivalent candidate that hasn't been arrested although it may be unfair and they may not come out and tell you that was a consideration, having been arrested is generally not going to help your chances for a job in the real world.
 
In addition when you are applying for a professional license or recurring relicense in most states you are specifically asked on the form whether you have ever been arrested or arrested since the last time the license was renewed. It's a lot easier and less complex and time-consuming to say no (truthfully) than having to "splain" the entire episode.
 


__._,_.___
Posted by: Albert Pearson <ehpee@rogers.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (9)

.

__,_._,___

[vpFREE] Re: Video Poker for iPad, iPhone, iPod

 

C said:

 

 "... in my reading of the statute [only using a rendering/image (JPG) of the strategy chart or a PDF or scan not directly created on the device] this would not qualify as using software to gain an advantage. But I'm curious what others would think."

 

That's possibly true, but someone could argue you are using JPEG or PDF software. But even assuming that it is not created with software on the device, still I'm not sure how  the 'I'm-not-using-software' argument gets you off the hook since the statute states in summary:

 

It is unlawful for any person to use any electronic, electrical, or hardware device designed to obtain an advantage at playing any game. I don't see how using a cell phone, or I-pad-like device (which is electrical/electronic hardware) would not fall into the category above.

 

Next C states: "I certainly don't want to get stuck carrying 80+ cards of strategy with me everywhere".

 

Well the statute does not have a loophole that if you have to carry 80+ cards of strategy, then the statute does not apply to you ;).

 

 

Next, saysitsme says:

 

"As regarding the law I think it would be legal in Nevada to use electronic help on 16-10 2's, Pickem Poker, 9-6 Jacks, Multi Strike 9-6 Jacks etc... as you do not gain a mathematical edge using the devise. However it would be illegal to use the devise for 10-7 double bonus, 10-6 double-double bonus, full pay 2's and progressives where return with perfect play is over 100%."

 

Where does it say the strategy using the electrical electronic device has to increase your advantage to over 100% before it becomes illegal? All it says is: " ... to obtain an advantage at playing any game … .

 

I guess if you had a lousy electronic based strategy card that would actually cause mistakes relative to the best strategy that could create a disadvantage for the player. Then I think you could argue you are innocent because you ere playing at a disadvantage. But not only would have to hire a lawyer but also probably also someone with Bob Dancer's reputation to show a judge or jury that this electronically derived/rendered strategy was so flawed that no advantage could be gained by using it. And we all know Bob get's the big hourly bucks as an expert in video poker and to be an expert witness and likely would relish an assignment like this.

 

saysitsme also says: "A question for the last poster why do you have to disclose that you have been arrested? An arrest is not a conviction. Innocent until proven guilty."

 

Many job applications ask if you have ever been arrested. If you say no when the truth is you have been you could be in trouble for lying about it. If you say I have been arrested and they have an equivalent candidate that hasn't been arrested although it may be unfair and they may not come out and tell you that was a consideration, having been arrested is generally not going to help your chances for a job in the real world.

 

In addition when you are applying for a professional license or recurring relicense in most states you are specifically asked on the form whether you have ever been arrested or arrested since the last time the license was renewed. It's a lot easier and less complex and time-consuming to say no (truthfully) than having to "splain" the entire episode.

 

__._,_.___
Posted by: straub@shore.net
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (8)

.

__,_._,___
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)