Re: [vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?

 

Who in the world would play that?  Donald Trump? I doubt it.

My local Harrah's offers a long bank of $5 6/5 JoB. 

________________________________
From: C <clementiyn@yahoo.com>
To: "vpFREE@yahoogroups.com" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?


 
My local Harrah's offers a long bank of $5 6/5 JoB.

I had to check three times because I just couldn't imagine that.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[vpFREE] Re: stations policy on no mailing

 

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
> Dave references a thread on vpFREE_Reno. The player whose handle is "What7do7you7want" did an excellent job debunking the myth weaving that others engaged in that thread.
>

Went back to VPFREERENO daughterboard thread w/subject:
"Peppermill- what to do with new tracking system?"
Message 4970 by tyroneceepacker is an example of real-time tracking:
--------------------------
"Peppermill- what to do with new tracking system?
Posted By:
tyroneceepacker
Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:58 pm |
This is in regard to how the new system can track your play (ie playing advatage
machine) can cut your comp rate to near zero in real time.

Nightoftheiguna pointed this out to me in a post last year and it is true. I was playing on a large multiplier day and all was going well
had racked up a couple hundred dollars comps when after a few hours I was not receiving any all (or just pennies). I returned next month
started in and was receiving comps at a decent rate but was again cut to zero. Both times I am scoring tier points, that doesn't seem effected even when comps get stopped.

What i'm driving at is how can a person extend their time receiving comps? Mix in slots/tables/sportbooks before you start your normal play? Play on a spouse's card that's combined the account?
Thanks for any help!"
----------------------------------

Several shared similar experiences ie: One can watch comp rate go down as your gambling. In a couple of hours rate down by a factor of ten.

I don't think "what7" sayz iz it ain't happening but rather it's stupid for casino to do. One comment said Mlife uses such software.

My wife and I got no mailed by Atlantis earlier this year. We just booked September $230 RT tickets (Boston to Sacramento). Wife wants to stay at Atlantis and gamble. We have ~$200 to use up. I'm happy to stay but don't want to give back any of their money.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
>
> Hedonist, I presume you meant to write "isn't being performed anywhere".
>
> Okay ... so I don't know this with certainty. But, to date, there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there's anything in place.
>
> Dave references a thread on vpFREE_Reno. The player whose handle is "What7do7you7want" did an excellent job debunking the myth weaving that others engaged in that thread.
>
> Now, it's a no-brainer that such tracking is entirely feasible. But the economics alone suggest that such a solution isn't practical in any casino.
>
> These days, you typically have half a dozen machines out of the entire floor with games that are "beatable", usually with just one or two game selections of several on the machine. And, most casinos are dealing with, at most, a couple dozen of players who skillfully eke out a decent advantage out of such machines (there are likely a lot more who likely fancy themselves as "advantage" players, but who in practice engage in practices that weaken themselves to a "breakeven" position, at best).
>
> My point is that one must ask oneself just who would pay for a wholesale solution, entailing a revamp in machine accounting that introduces the complexity of data collection at every hand, vs one that merely records data at "coin in" and "coin out"?
>
> Most casinos seem quite content in their means by which to deal with advantage players. The most expedient means is simply to reduce theos on the most attractive games (perhaps not the most efficient, but reasonably effective), and to keep a handle on players who aggressively take advantage of promotions.
>
> - H.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, hedonist144 <hedonist144@> wrote:
> >
> > Harry, I always appreciate your answers and comments.  How do you know skill assessment is being performed anywhere?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: vp_wiz <harry.porter@>
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:56 PM
> > Subject: [vpFREE] Re: stations policy on no mailing
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> > Skill assessment of vp play in casinos isn't being performed. At LVH, you and many other players had their standing degraded simply because LVH sharply weakened the theos assigned to their best games.
> >
> > The host who suggested that skill was a factor was simply speaking out of her ass, other than as a suggestion that you weren't leaving at least 2% of your coin-in on the table.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, David Feldman <feldman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Am I hallucinating, or isn't software tracking players' quality of play already in use? I remember the Las Vegas Hilton (before the change to LVH)
> > > was rumored to use it, and my host implied as much to me when she cut off my comps. I went from C-2 to "no thanks" in one visit, playing mostly the FPJOB 10-play
> > > (with minimal play of the positive dollar plays in the sports book) that is still on the floor. When I expressed surprise that I was being cut off for playing the
> > > same games I always played, and had lost on this trip and the previous trip, she replied: "You are playing the wrong games, and you are playing too well on
> > > those games." I do not play flawlessly, even on JOB.
> > >
> > > DF
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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RE: [vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?

 

My local Harrah's offers a long bank of $5 6/5 JoB.

I had to check three times because I just couldn't imagine that.

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RE: [vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?

 

It used to be but at the Caesars properties, hosts (and in some cases other staff who have access to the data) are willing to give it to you. The problem is that just knowing your theo does not do much good unless you have the ability to compare it to others and know where you fall in the scheme of things and what the criteria are for certain offers.

> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> From: vegasvpplayer@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:09:55 -0700
> Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?
>
> How do you find out find out your theo at the end of the day? I thought this was a HUGE secret now at Caesars' properties.
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 18, 2013, at 8:55 AM, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > My Rio experience is thin, but I'll offer up that I played a single day there earlier this year. I singled out a machine where BP was the strongest game, other games were weak, and the machine also featured keno. I had hoped for a 2% theo, but in checking at the end of the day I was disappointed to find that I had realized a theo of less than 0.9%.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?

 

How do you find out find out your theo at the end of the day? I thought this was a HUGE secret now at Caesars' properties.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 18, 2013, at 8:55 AM, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> My Rio experience is thin, but I'll offer up that I played a single day there earlier this year. I singled out a machine where BP was the strongest game, other games were weak, and the machine also featured keno. I had hoped for a 2% theo, but in checking at the end of the day I was disappointed to find that I had realized a theo of less than 0.9%.
>
>
>

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[vpFREE] Re: Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?

 



--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rich Luong" <hassanri@...> wrote:
>
> What's the best game to play at the Rio? From Vpfree2, Jacks/Better is the better game percent wise, but is that the best theoretical (game) when it comes to mailers, free play, etc.? Thanks
>

I'm going to guess that the Jacks at Rio is about as good as it gets from a ER/theo perspective.

My Rio experience is thin, but I'll offer up that I played a single day there earlier this year. I singled out a machine where BP was the strongest game, other games were weak, and the machine also featured keno. I had hoped for a 2% theo, but in checking at the end of the day I was disappointed to find that I had realized a theo of less than 0.9%.

- H.

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[vpFREE] Question: What's the Best game to play at the Rio?

 

What's the best game to play at the Rio? From Vpfree2, Jacks/Better is the better game percent wise, but is that the best theoretical (game) when it comes to mailers, free play, etc.? Thanks

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[vpFREE] Re: stations policy on no mailing

 

Question:
Am I hallucinating, or isn't software tracking players' quality of play already in use?  I remember the Las Vegas Hilton (before the change to LVH)
was rumored to use it, and my host implied as much to me when she cut off my comps.  I went from C-2 to "no thanks" in one visit, playing mostly the FPJOB 10-play
(with minimal play of the positive dollar plays in the sports book) that is still on the floor.  When I expressed surprise that I was being cut off for playing the
same games I always played, and had lost on this trip and the previous trip, she replied: "You are playing the wrong games, and you are playing too well on
those games."  I do not play flawlessly, even on JOB.

My answer:
Obviously, if you use a players' card, the casino knows not only your coin-in and what their "hold" is, but they can tell you that information by time of day and date - e.g. "you played from 2pm to 4pm on Friday, had $10,000 coin-in, and you lost $700".  While it wouldn't take much software to put the bottom line on automatic, even without such software it's easy enough to calculate what percentage of coin-in is being lost or won by an individual player.  Obviously, this is NOT an indication of skill, but of actual outcome - but in the long run, that may be all the data a casino wishes to use to decide if a player is worthy of comps / mailers / etc.

Certainly it is possible, I would think, for a computer to collect data on the play of every single hand and compare exact correct play to the player's actual play, but I do not know if this is being done.  This is the data that would allow the casino to determine if a player has an edge against the house, or is playing skillfully enough to reduce the house edge substantially, or is playing poorly and giving the house more than is necessary for the particular machine and pay table -- and this could be calculated without worrying about actual outcome.  This SHOULD be the data preferred by a casino, since it will allow them to reduce comps or bar a skilled player whose outcome does not support the skill being used, and it will allow them to continue to comp an unskilled player whose luck has made them a winner so far.

I have been barred by several casinos for card-counting while playing blackjack, and in over half the cases, I was losing when barred.  At that time, the pit bosses rated the players based on average bet size, and in most cases also on an estimate of skill level, with the less skilled players being granted a higher level of comps.  I was still able to qualify for comps before being identified as a card-counter, but once barred, I even had previously promised comps (such as a free room for a trip) taken away, although one casino very graciously did keep their word of a comped room even after barring me.  But once a casino identifies you as a skillful player, no matter what the game and no matter how you're actually doing at the time, you are a less desirable player for them, and perhaps one that they would prefer did not play at all, hence the reduction / cessation of comps, and the barrings.

And of course, just the fact that one plays video poker instead of other slots is a red flag for most casinos.  Most of them already have reduced the points earned for coin-in at video poker compared to other slots, and most have made video poker ineligible for point multiplier days.  If (like myself, and unlike the pro's) you do not actively seek out unusual play opportunities and do not avoid playing in the absence of a player edge, the best you can hope for is to minimize the cost of playing and partially compensate that cost with comps and entertainment value; if the former is yanked, the latter is all you have left.

--BG
=======================

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[vpFREE] Re: stations policy on no mailing

 

Hedonist, I presume you meant to write "isn't being performed anywhere".

Okay ... so I don't know this with certainty. But, to date, there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that there's anything in place.

Dave references a thread on vpFREE_Reno. The player whose handle is "What7do7you7want" did an excellent job debunking the myth weaving that others engaged in that thread.

Now, it's a no-brainer that such tracking is entirely feasible. But the economics alone suggest that such a solution isn't practical in any casino.

These days, you typically have half a dozen machines out of the entire floor with games that are "beatable", usually with just one or two game selections of several on the machine. And, most casinos are dealing with, at most, a couple dozen of players who skillfully eke out a decent advantage out of such machines (there are likely a lot more who likely fancy themselves as "advantage" players, but who in practice engage in practices that weaken themselves to a "breakeven" position, at best).

My point is that one must ask oneself just who would pay for a wholesale solution, entailing a revamp in machine accounting that introduces the complexity of data collection at every hand, vs one that merely records data at "coin in" and "coin out"?

Most casinos seem quite content in their means by which to deal with advantage players. The most expedient means is simply to reduce theos on the most attractive games (perhaps not the most efficient, but reasonably effective), and to keep a handle on players who aggressively take advantage of promotions.

- H.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, hedonist144 <hedonist144@...> wrote:
>
> Harry, I always appreciate your answers and comments.  How do you know skill assessment is being performed anywhere?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: vp_wiz <harry.porter@...>
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:56 PM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: stations policy on no mailing
>
>
>
>  
> Skill assessment of vp play in casinos isn't being performed. At LVH, you and many other players had their standing degraded simply because LVH sharply weakened the theos assigned to their best games.
>
> The host who suggested that skill was a factor was simply speaking out of her ass, other than as a suggestion that you weren't leaving at least 2% of your coin-in on the table.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, David Feldman <feldman@> wrote:
> >
> > Am I hallucinating, or isn't software tracking players' quality of play already in use? I remember the Las Vegas Hilton (before the change to LVH)
> > was rumored to use it, and my host implied as much to me when she cut off my comps. I went from C-2 to "no thanks" in one visit, playing mostly the FPJOB 10-play
> > (with minimal play of the positive dollar plays in the sports book) that is still on the floor. When I expressed surprise that I was being cut off for playing the
> > same games I always played, and had lost on this trip and the previous trip, she replied: "You are playing the wrong games, and you are playing too well on
> > those games." I do not play flawlessly, even on JOB.
> >
> > DF
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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