Fw: [vpFREE] Re: Illegality, immorality and cheating--#2

 



Here's another one up for debate--
is what he did illegal, immoral and/or cheating??

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/the-turnstile/phil-ivey-british-casino-embroiled-dispute-over-payment-032520482.html

or    http://tinyurl.com/cgsxrcw
 

Jean H--
 
The random number generator does not respond
to violence. -Melissa Fine, Strictly Slots
 
Retirement is like a long vacation in Las Vegas.
The goal is to enjoy it the fullest, but not so fully
that you run out of money. -Jonathan Clements
 
Life is ten percent what you make it
and ninety percent how you take it!
 
"I believe in luck: how else can you explain
the success of those you dislike?" —Jean Cocteau

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: seedub49 <seedub49@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 10:59 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Illegality, immorality and cheating

 

--- In mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com, Tim Tucker <smellypuppy@...> wrote:
>.Are they cheating? I do not see how that can be the case.

They forced a machine to pay them a win on a wager THEY NEVER MADE. I admit I don't think the machine rules explicitly say that you must place a bet to be paid on a winning hand (maybe it does, I haven't read the help screen in a long time). But I believe an implicit rule in every game of chance is that you won't get paid if you don't place a bet. I cant think of any game where this is not the case. Even in cases of freerolls and freeplay, there are explicit rules to explain how those promotions differ from the implied rule that you will not be paid if you don't make a wager.

If you don't realize that they were getting paid on a wager they never made, consider this. The original $1 hand they played to get quad aces ended as soon as they were paid for them. The double up wager ended as soon as that was resolved. At that point, there are no active bets. Then they select the $10 game and force the machine to pay them for quad aces without ever placing a bet.

There is no difference between this and walking in a casino, seeing that someone had hit quad aces on a machine some time before you got there, and somehow tricking an attendant to pay you for the hand that was left on the screen. If you do not see how what they did is cheating, do you also feel that this is also obviously legitimate?

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[vpFREE] Re: Who The Real Sicko Gamblers Are

 

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "barf_bag_007" <barf_bag_007@...> wrote:
>
> It's a shame that when MC hatefully points a finger at someone, he always has 3 fingers pointing right back at him.
>
>
Eleven years gambling in Nevada I never made one enemy. Seven years in Montana I don't have one enemy. I'm pretty good at disarming even the most hateful of individuals and just being their friend. It is extremely rare that I run into an individual that, while I'm being cordial, he keeps hurling insult after insult at me.

For years he called me a liar and a degenerate. We were out of contact for a long time. But them he emailed a few days ago hurling insults. I remained very cordial in my responses to him. But his responses kept up with the insults. I even invited him to Montana to watch me in action and he could draw his own conclusions. He never acknowledged the offer and kept hurling insults.

He doesn't care whether I'm telling the truth or not about advantage gambling. All he cares about is tearing me down and making me feel bad. So I finally hurled a few insults back and told him not to ever contact me again.

The offer to meet me in Montana is revoked. I'm not afraid of him. I'm afraid of myself. I know what I'm capable of. I he were to talk to me in person the way he has talked to me online, I'll take his head off on the spot.

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[vpFREE] Re: Illegality, immorality and cheating

 



--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tim Tucker <smellypuppy@...> wrote:
>.Are they cheating? I do not see how that can be the case.

They forced a machine to pay them a win on a wager THEY NEVER MADE. I admit I don't think the machine rules explicitly say that you must place a bet to be paid on a winning hand (maybe it does, I haven't read the help screen in a long time). But I believe an implicit rule in every game of chance is that you won't get paid if you don't place a bet. I cant think of any game where this is not the case. Even in cases of freerolls and freeplay, there are explicit rules to explain how those promotions differ from the implied rule that you will not be paid if you don't make a wager.

If you don't realize that they were getting paid on a wager they never made, consider this. The original $1 hand they played to get quad aces ended as soon as they were paid for them. The double up wager ended as soon as that was resolved. At that point, there are no active bets. Then they select the $10 game and force the machine to pay them for quad aces without ever placing a bet.

There is no difference between this and walking in a casino, seeing that someone had hit quad aces on a machine some time before you got there, and somehow tricking an attendant to pay you for the hand that was left on the screen. If you do not see how what they did is cheating, do you also feel that this is also obviously legitimate?

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RE: [vpFREE] Illegality, immorality and cheating

To me the man vs. machine morality comes into play. They took advantage of a glich in the program. At least before they went all around the country. I wonder how many of us give back the extra candy bar they get from a machine once in a blue moon; that happens at a less frequent rate than losing your money trying to get a candy from the machine. This is a profound question!




To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
From: fryday58@hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 23:54:52 +0000
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Illegality, immorality and cheating





Happy mothers day

> Adultery Is illegal in many states, just to clarify.
> Many of the analogies presented on this topic to test legality or morality fall short in one or multiple areas.
> We can only weigh in on whether what these people did is cheating and to the point of is it wrong.
> I think everyone will agree that cheating is wrong. However, even this with specific examples will have gray areas, but please let's start simple.
> Did these people cheat?






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[vpFREE] Re: Ohio gambling tax considerations

 

Yes, I confirmed that Cincinnati is 2.1% and Ohio is 4%. I was told the amount to trigger a W2G in Ohio is $1250, not $1200 by a Horseshoe Cincinnati slot tech. I thought $1200 was a federal thing, is that right?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Queen of Comps" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:
>
> <<Totally inaccurate. Ohio has a 4% state withholding on W-2Gs. Cincinnati has 2.1% City tax. Cleveland is 2.0%. Columbus is 2.5%. I've not had a W-2G in Toledo, but I see no reason to believe it would be any different than their 2.25% municipal income tax.>>
>
> Thanx, SB, for this good information. It confirms what I had found in other research.
>
> I am assuming this 4% withholding state tax is for Ohio residents AND non-residents, correct? Then the latter would have to file a non-resident Ohio state tax return to get all or part of it back.
>
> And my understanding is that the state now â€" since January 1 - allows deduction for gambling losses â€" but on the CITY returns these deductions are NOT allowed. I have not had confirmation that this is true in all four cities. Looks like Toledo gives a $2500 exemption if you file a Toledo City tax return. Is that an exemption for the total W2-G amounts????
>
> Although it is good that Ohio improved things for gamblers by allowing deductions for gambling losses, having 4 different city rules makes tax time more complicated for Ohio residents AND for non-residents who play in Ohio casinos. Can you â€" or anyone with personal knowledge - confirm that all 4 cities withhold the city tax as well as the state tax? I am assuming they do so for residents of that city, but what about non-residents???
>
> I have the following information about the taxes withheld which seems to always be true for city residents (not sure about Toledo), but what about non-city residents who play in Columbus or Cincinnati or Toledo.
>
>
> Columbus: 2.5% applies to both residents and non-residents
>
> Cleveland: 2% only on residents
>
> Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents
>
> Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return.
>
>
>
> Would love to hear from non-Ohio residents who have hit a W2-G jackpot in any Ohio casino and learn what was withhold â€" state and/or city tax. Also, need information from an Ohio resident who hits a jackpot in a city where they do not live. Did they have a city tax withheld? Please include name of casino in your report. And if you aren’t sure of the percentage withheld, you can check your W2-G to find that information.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
> http://queenofcomps.com/
> You can read my blog at
> http://jscott.lvablog.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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RE: [vpFREE] Illegality, immorality and cheating

 

Great analysis! You hit the nail right on the head.


> To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
> From: smellypuppy@hotmail.com
> Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 08:58:43 -0700
> Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Illegality, immorality and cheating
>
> Adultery Is illegal in many states, just to clarify.
> Many of the analogies presented on this topic to test legality or morality fall short in one or multiple areas.
> We can only weigh in on whether what these people did is cheating and to the point of is it wrong.
> I think everyone will agree that cheating is wrong. However, even this with specific examples will have gray areas, but please let's start simple.
> Did these people cheat?
> Cheating requires intentional deception and yes what they did repeatedly was intentional, but the issue I have is the deception part. They were lying through omission to the manufacturer and casinos about the defective software (not an ATM glitch that occurs 1 in 5,000,000 times). This seems like a stretch that patrons are responsible for integrity reporting on the software code. I at least think that video poker is between player and machine regardless of manufacturer or location, so the person needs to be deceiving the machine. This is the crux of the issue. The software was doing exactly as it was programmed. This makes it similar to Mickey's example of a progressive reset to a much higher base or Bob's example of a much higher than is supposed to be comp rate for that game; however, in this instance far more money is involved and the defect was more difficult to find. Are any of these situations wrong, maybe. Are they cheating? I do not see how that can be the case. The software had a flaw in its programming these people did not cheat the machine.
>
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> From: decca@shaw.ca
> Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 13:47:11 +0000
> Subject: [vpFREE] Illegality, immorality and cheating
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> Illegality depends on the specific wording of the appropriate statute. If a statute is poorly written or ambiguous, a defendant may be acquitted even though most people believe that what he did was "illegal".
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> Immorality depends on one's personal code of ethics. To a vegetarian, eating meat may be immoral. To a meat-eater, not so much.
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> Cheating may be illegal, immoral or neither. Cheating on one's taxes is illegal but many people don't seem to think it is wrong. Cheating on one's spouse is not illegal, but most people believe it is wrong. Playing vp with a cheat sheet (strategy card) is not illegal and even the casinos don't seem to think that it is wrong.
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> Nestor and Kane are alleged to have asked the casinos to enable the double-up feature on machines that did not have the feature enabled. The double-up feature was an essential ingredient that allowed them to take advantage of the flaw and reap payouts that were ten times larger than their actual wins. Illegal? Who knows? But it should be no surprise that casinos will do everything in their power to convince the authorities to prosecute anyone who tries to do this.
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> ------------------------------------
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> vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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RE: [vpFREE] Illegality, immorality and cheating

 

Happy mothers day

> Adultery Is illegal in many states, just to clarify.
> Many of the analogies presented on this topic to test legality or morality fall short in one or multiple areas.
> We can only weigh in on whether what these people did is cheating and to the point of is it wrong.
> I think everyone will agree that cheating is wrong. However, even this with specific examples will have gray areas, but please let's start simple.
> Did these people cheat?

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[vpFREE] Re: pNSUD with NSUD Strategy

 

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks to the other reply with the strategy modified return.  I used to have FVP but could
> never figure out how to use this function.  Somehow you had to run the strategy generator
> then import the new paytable?

I believe you would use the analysis feature "Inherit Strategy Chart".

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Ohio gambling tax considerations

 

<<Totally inaccurate. Ohio has a 4% state withholding on W-2Gs. Cincinnati has 2.1% City tax. Cleveland is 2.0%. Columbus is 2.5%. I've not had a W-2G in Toledo, but I see no reason to believe it would be any different than their 2.25% municipal income tax.>>

Thanx, SB, for this good information. It confirms what I had found in other research.

I am assuming this 4% withholding state tax is for Ohio residents AND non-residents, correct? Then the latter would have to file a non-resident Ohio state tax return to get all or part of it back.

And my understanding is that the state now – since January 1 - allows deduction for gambling losses – but on the CITY returns these deductions are NOT allowed. I have not had confirmation that this is true in all four cities. Looks like Toledo gives a $2500 exemption if you file a Toledo City tax return. Is that an exemption for the total W2-G amounts????

Although it is good that Ohio improved things for gamblers by allowing deductions for gambling losses, having 4 different city rules makes tax time more complicated for Ohio residents AND for non-residents who play in Ohio casinos. Can you – or anyone with personal knowledge - confirm that all 4 cities withhold the city tax as well as the state tax? I am assuming they do so for residents of that city, but what about non-residents???

I have the following information about the taxes withheld which seems to always be true for city residents (not sure about Toledo), but what about non-city residents who play in Columbus or Cincinnati or Toledo.

Columbus: 2.5% applies to both residents and non-residents

Cleveland: 2% only on residents

Cincinnati: 2.1% on residents and non-residents

Toledo: 2.25% with a $2500 exemption that is claimed by filing a Toledo City tax return.

Would love to hear from non-Ohio residents who have hit a W2-G jackpot in any Ohio casino and learn what was withhold – state and/or city tax. Also, need information from an Ohio resident who hits a jackpot in a city where they do not live. Did they have a city tax withheld? Please include name of casino in your report. And if you aren't sure of the percentage withheld, you can check your W2-G to find that information.

------------------------------------------
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[vpFREE] Re: Who The Real Sicko Gamblers Are

 



>
>

It's a shame that when MC hatefully points a finger at someone, he always has 3 fingers pointing right back at him.

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[vpFREE] Re: Who The Real Sicko Gamblers Are

 

does he play 9/6/960 on the $100 hundred play machine too?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
>
> I've been taking some major heat these last few days for my defense of Bob and his divorce situation. It won't take you much imagination at all to figure out who the culprit is. According to him Bob and me are bigtime sick, pathetic, degenerate gamblig addicts who only lie to ourselves about holding advantages. I personally don't think I'm all that bad when it comes to so called sicko advantage gamblers. I mean, I just play a few low-denom machines around here and there for no more than 25 or thirty hours a week. If you want to know who the real bigtime sicko gamblers on the planet are I'll name one for you....STEVE WYNN.
>
> The dude must have lost his lunch money pitching pennies in grade school and he's still trying to get back even. I mean, the man has spent billions building properties in Las Vegas and challenging every gambler in the world to come gamble with him. That's a pretty sick gambler in my opinion. The guy can't get enough action.
>
> I just play a few machines here and there. But that sicko Wynn plays everything. Craps, Blackjack, roulette, keno, you name it, he plays it. And he pays hundreds of employee's good salaries to keep his money in action. I mean dude covers multi-millions of dollars in bets every day. And he does it 24-7-365. He's even gambling when he's sleeping. What a sick perverted gambling addict.
>
> And Las Vegas was not even enough to satiate his sick, pathetic addiction to gambling. He goes to Macau and builds a big joint. This sick, depraved man just can't get enough action.
>
> And he calls himself an advantage gambler. Hah! He probably read some book years ago by some sheister guru gambling writer talkin' about "do it this way and it's a sure win." That idiot Wynn should know that the only people makin' the gamblin' money are the ones selling those phony gambling books. That phony B.S. got started by those two perverted, psychotic French mathematicians, what's their names, oh yeah, Pascal and Fermat, puttin' down that probability theory gibberish 450 years ago. Idiots, including Steve Wynn, have been falling for that crap ever since. Quit fooling yourself, Wynn. That advantage gambling crap doesn't work. You'll go broke sure as hell when your credit lines dry up.
>
> Sheldon Adelson and Kirk Kerkorian are just as bad. Thank God Jackie Gaughan and Jack Binion finally found the good sense to quit trying to be advantage gamblers. You know, the word on the street is they had to quit because they went broke. Hopefully, they've sought treatment for their gambling addictions.
>

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[vpFREE] Re: Ohio gambling tax considerations

 



Totally inaccurate. Ohio has a 4% state withholding on W-2Gs. Cincinnati has 2.1% City tax. Cleveland is 2.0%. Columbus is 2.5%. I've not had a W-2G in Toledo, but I see no reason to believe it would be any different than their 2.25% municipal income tax.

SB

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Queen of Comps" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:
>
> <<Yes, in Cincinnati. City is 3%, I can't recall what the state was. And yes, they automatically take out city and state. If you also have them withhold the 20% federal, it ends up being almost 40% of your win between the three.>>
>
> Are you sure of this 3% â€" I had previous info saying it was 2.1%. Could you check your W2-G?
> ------------------------------------------
> Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
> http://queenofcomps.com/
> You can read my blog at
> http://jscott.lvablog.com/
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm
>
>
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use • Send us Feedback .
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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