[vpFREE] Re: Gambling with an Edge

 



Bruce wrote: Using
aforementioned Casino management logic, they ought to pull all VP machines
because even a 95% game 'gives away' twice as much as a 90% slot.

First of all, this is the second time in a row I'm
arguing against one of Bruce's posts. This is not personal. As I mentioned
recently, I've used similar arguments to his myself. Bruce appears to be
frustrated by good games disappearing and he's using every argument to prevent
that that he can. I don't blame his frustration. Venting on this forum,
however, is not likely to help him in the long run.

What he wrote here is just plain wrong. Casinos don't
use percentages to determine which games to keep. They use a variation of "profit
per day." The way I'm using "profit" here is the percentage hold
TIMES the coin-in. A 95% game gives away twice as much as a 90% game (from the
casino's point of view) ONLY if they have the same coin-in.

If a 90% slot machine gets $500 coin-in per day in
coin-in, then the casino makes $50 on that machine. If a 95% machine gets $2000
coin-in per day, the casino makes $100 on that machine.

Most casinos are willing to accept a somewhat lower
profit-per-day on video poker machines than on slot machines. They know they
need a diversity of machines to be successful. But there's a limit. Each casino
determines what the least acceptable profit-per-day is for them. Any machine
that doesn't measure up to that is removed or has the pay schedule adjusted.

These are not hard concepts to understand if you take
the time to try to understand the casino's point of view. Successful players
understand the casinos' motivations and adjust accordingly. They realize that
video poker is a cat-and-mouse game between the casino and the player. Clever
mice can still win at this game. Mice that rail against the cats and don't
change what they are doing are unlikely to succeed.

On a different subject, I'm creating this post on Word
and then pasting it. Hopefully the paragraphs are delineated. I appreciate this
particular suggestion from Ballyowner
as well as the suggestions of others.

Bob



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Re: [vpFREE] more re Harrahs Codes

 

this reminds me so much of the McDonald's monopoly contest... the online version.. I don't know if anyone here has played.. but I sent away for so over 1,000 pieces one year (I had my students write names and address on envelopes, for the promise of a food party for everyone).. I didn't win a thing other than the early stages of type ii diabetes..

________________________________
From: "misscraps@aol.com" <misscraps@aol.com>
To: harrahscasinos@yahoogroups.com
Cc: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 10:15 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] more re Harrahs Codes


 

Well, I finally found some of those Codes for the new Harrahs Escape
contest on Facebook. You have to find the Facebook Groups for places like
Caesars Palace (not just Caesars), or Planet Hollywood, or Ballys (both AC and
Vegas). Some of the casinos don't have any codes (like Bill's Gambling
Hall) that I could find. Then look on the left side, and in a list of things
like "wall" etc., you will see Escape to Rewards, click on that, get a
picture, page down, and there is the code. Some people are also posting codes
in messages (someone said he googled the contest and found codes).

Then you write down your codes, go to the caesar's.com site, find the
Logo for the Escape contest, which may take some doing, click on that, keep
clicking when it says "play the contest" = enter the codes one at a time,
finally, making sure they work,

BUT you can enter only 10 codes a day.

On top of that, I entered 10 codes and played the game, and only 1 (ONE!)
gave me another puzzle piece (you have to find 36 puzzle pieces I think to
finally win something). The other 9 gave me an entry into the Grand Prize
Drawing (a "coveted" entry mind you).

I am guessing the codes change on these sites each day? Otherwise pretty
quickly you are going to run out of codes.

I still don't know where you find the codes on Twitter (tried it and
couldn't figure it out) and I haven't tried Foresquare or whatever that other
place is.

You can mail in for codes too - but that would be pretty costly, especially
if only 1 out of 10 gives you a game piece.

All in all seems a lot of work.

You can see some of the people who won something, mostly listed are small
prizes.

I got an email saying I was one of first 2000 people to enter contest and
received a $20 Best Buy code.

Not sure it is worth the effort! Probably not....

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[vpFREE] more re Harrahs Codes

 

Well, I finally found some of those Codes for the new Harrahs Escape
contest on Facebook. You have to find the Facebook Groups for places like
Caesars Palace (not just Caesars), or Planet Hollywood, or Ballys (both AC and
Vegas). Some of the casinos don't have any codes (like Bill's Gambling
Hall) that I could find. Then look on the left side, and in a list of things
like "wall" etc., you will see Escape to Rewards, click on that, get a
picture, page down, and there is the code. Some people are also posting codes
in messages (someone said he googled the contest and found codes).

Then you write down your codes, go to the caesar's.com site, find the
Logo for the Escape contest, which may take some doing, click on that, keep
clicking when it says "play the contest" = enter the codes one at a time,
finally, making sure they work,

BUT you can enter only 10 codes a day.

On top of that, I entered 10 codes and played the game, and only 1 (ONE!)
gave me another puzzle piece (you have to find 36 puzzle pieces I think to
finally win something). The other 9 gave me an entry into the Grand Prize
Drawing (a "coveted" entry mind you).

I am guessing the codes change on these sites each day? Otherwise pretty
quickly you are going to run out of codes.

I still don't know where you find the codes on Twitter (tried it and
couldn't figure it out) and I haven't tried Foresquare or whatever that other
place is.

You can mail in for codes too - but that would be pretty costly, especially
if only 1 out of 10 gives you a game piece.

All in all seems a lot of work.

You can see some of the people who won something, mostly listed are small
prizes.

I got an email saying I was one of first 2000 people to enter contest and
received a $20 Best Buy code.

Not sure it is worth the effort! Probably not....

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[vpFREE] re Harrahs Escape contest

 

After we changed one of our emails to a different one, now my husband and I
can both access the Escape contest online.

Laughlin personnel were confused about the contest and their kiosks did not
work all weekend. We asked for and found no extra codes for eating at
eateries or checking in or using our card.

I will have to try harder to find codes on Facebook. Seems like if the
same codes are there for everyone than people can pass them around. Not sure
if when kiosks work you will get a new card or an instant game or what.
The online rules talk about kiosks issuing a scratch card, but the kiosk we
saw was just a terminal, so any scratch card would be on a screen on that
one.

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Re: [vpFREE] Question about the "guts" of Progressives

On single line Game King, there are some limitations in the number of
progressives, especially on the older models, but they can set the start
up/reset value and the increment rate to whatever they want.

They can't set an arbitrary paytable because operators need to know how
much the hold is for accounting purposes, and the GameKings are much, much,
much too slow to do any calculation like that.

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> According to Bob Dancer in a recent thread today, the casino pretty much
> has an option of choosing a pay table that is available and cannot just
> make up their own pay tables. I didn't know that. I've never seen the guts
> of a video poker machine.
>
> Here's my question. How about progressives? How do they set the machines
> to progress? Can they progress ANY game/pay table? Can they progress any
> hand? Can they progress any rate of meter rise?
>
> I guess I'm asking about your average IGT Game King, since it is by far
> the most common.
>
>
>


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[vpFREE] Question about the "guts" of Progressives

 

According to Bob Dancer in a recent thread today, the casino pretty much has an option of choosing a pay table that is available and cannot just make up their own pay tables. I didn't know that. I've never seen the guts of a video poker machine.

Here's my question. How about progressives? How do they set the machines to progress? Can they progress ANY game/pay table? Can they progress any hand? Can they progress any rate of meter rise?

I guess I'm asking about your average IGT Game King, since it is by far the most common.

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Re: [vpFREE] format question

 

If you write your post in a program like Word and then

Copy and paste to the VPFree post, the format should also transfer.

Glen

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Dancer
To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 4:10 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] format question

In my last post I tried to make several paragraphs --- so as to make it easier to read. I even used three blank lines between paragraphs. For whatever reason it all came out as one paragraph. Any suggestions as to what to do if I want separate paragraphs? Bob

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Re: [vpFREE] format question

 

A different font size and color could help distinguish the original text
to your response.

Joey


In a message dated 3/4/2012 6:58:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
007@embarqmail.com writes:

Bob wrote:

>In my last post I tried to make several paragraphs --- so as to make it
easier to read. I even used three blank lines between paragraphs. For
whatever reason it all came out as one paragraph. Any suggestions as to what to
do if I want separate paragraphs? Bob
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hitting "enter" to create space instead of clicking to move the cursor
down might be worth a try.

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Re: [vpFREE] format question

 

Bob wrote:

>In my last post I tried to make several paragraphs --- so as to make it easier to read. I even used three blank lines between paragraphs. For whatever reason it all came out as one paragraph. Any suggestions as to what to do if I want separate paragraphs? Bob
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hitting "enter" to create space instead of clicking to move the cursor
down might be worth a try.

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RE: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge

 

The grocery store carries plenty of items they don't make a
profit on, to stay competitive.
 
Milk in California cannot be sold for less than cost (silly)
because it was such a loss leader.
 
The Casino should look at the overall handle and hold,
not only the individual machine.
 
Just like with a grocery store, you have a mix of products
with various margins, all designed to keep your numbers
overall up.
 
Using aforementioned Casino management logic, they
ought to pull all VP machines because even a 95% game
'gives away' twice as much as a 90% slot.

--- On Sun, 3/4/12, Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge
To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 3:03 PM

 

Tom argued: I'm not sure who is advising the casino's, but its not really good advice.
Instead of getting rid of Full pay deuces , lower the pay schedule. For
example, If a casino takes a fp deuces 5 coin schedule and cuts the 5K=70,
and WRF=120, folks would still play it ! Why , simply because at 100.27 EV,
its still the best game in town, and the casino makes an extra $50,000 cash,
for every 10M coin in thanks to the reduced pay schedule.

That's not as easy as you imply. When a casino wishes to change pay schedules, they do not have free reign. They are limited to choosing among the pay schedules offered by the manufacturers. If you want to argue that IGT should offer looser pay schedule options, go ahead. But whether they offer them or not, unless slot directors choose to put them on their machines, it doesn't change anything. If casinos wanted looser pay tables, IGT would offer them. As to the specifics of your example, keep in mind that few casinos even offer NSU --- which is a half percent tighter than the example you gave. When casinos add up slot club, promotions, overhead, etc., most have come to the conclusion that they cannot afford a 99.7% game. In a different post, Bruce Cohen argued strongly that there are enough bad players out there that casinos can make money with FPDW. This is a case of preaching to the choir. Members of vpFREE obviously wants loose pay tables --- and any
argument in favor of that resonates here. Except the argument is basically incorrect. Whatever arguments players want to use that there some bad players out there (and undoubtedly there are many), the bottom line for the casino is how many dollars per day do FPDW and other 100% machines make for the casino. The slot director at the South Point told me the machines were making $10 per day BEFORE including slot club and other benefits. And there were several 100% games on those machines quite a bit tighter than FPDW. I argued as strongly as I knew how that "loss leaders" made sense for the casino. I used many arguments similar to the ones Bruce made here. The arguments fell on deaf ears. Their mind was made up. And this was at a casino committed to loose video poker. Most casinos have no such commitment. There are more bad players than good players --- but good players put a lot more coin-in through the machines than their not-so-good counterparts.

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[vpFREE] format question

 



In my last post I tried to make several paragraphs --- so as to make it easier to read. I even used three blank lines between paragraphs. For whatever reason it all came out as one paragraph. Any suggestions as to what to do if I want separate paragraphs? Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge

 



Tom argued: I'm not sure who is advising the casino's, but its not really good advice.
Instead of getting rid of Full pay deuces , lower the pay schedule. For
example, If a casino takes a fp deuces 5 coin schedule and cuts the 5K=70,
and WRF=120, folks would still play it ! Why , simply because at 100.27 EV,
its still the best game in town, and the casino makes an extra $50,000 cash,
for every 10M coin in thanks to the reduced pay schedule.

That's not as easy as you imply. When a casino wishes to change pay schedules, they do not have free reign. They are limited to choosing among the pay schedules offered by the manufacturers. If you want to argue that IGT should offer looser pay schedule options, go ahead. But whether they offer them or not, unless slot directors choose to put them on their machines, it doesn't change anything. If casinos wanted looser pay tables, IGT would offer them. As to the specifics of your example, keep in mind that few casinos even offer NSU --- which is a half percent tighter than the example you gave. When casinos add up slot club, promotions, overhead, etc., most have come to the conclusion that they cannot afford a 99.7% game. In a different post, Bruce Cohen argued strongly that there are enough bad players out there that casinos can make money with FPDW. This is a case of preaching to the choir. Members of vpFREE obviously wants loose pay tables --- and any argument in favor of that resonates here. Except the argument is basically incorrect. Whatever arguments players want to use that there some bad players out there (and undoubtedly there are many), the bottom line for the casino is how many dollars per day do FPDW and other 100% machines make for the casino. The slot director at the South Point told me the machines were making $10 per day BEFORE including slot club and other benefits. And there were several 100% games on those machines quite a bit tighter than FPDW. I argued as strongly as I knew how that "loss leaders" made sense for the casino. I used many arguments similar to the ones Bruce made here. The arguments fell on deaf ears. Their mind was made up. And this was at a casino committed to loose video poker. Most casinos have no such commitment. There are more bad players than good players --- but good players put a lot more coin-in through the machines than their not-so-good counterparts.



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[vpFREE] Total Escape Kiosk Game

 

Hi Gang:
Has anyone been able to figure out how to play the new Harrah's/Caesars
Total Escape Kiosk Game?
I've tried in the casino and at home on my PC and I've decided you need a
PHd in computer astrophysics (is there such a thing?) to just sign in.
Another brilliant idea by the Harrah's suits.
Regards,
CoachVee & Hedy

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge

 

It's stupid to pull them.
I watched a whole set of banks with Dueces going off,
about 90% full, signs over the machines bragging of
the over 10% payback and only one person was
playing fast.  (Two machines, too!)
 
I watched a handful of players and they were holding
one high card and crazy things like that.
(I could hit a royal!)
 
What the Casinos forget is that for every amateur
like me who studies the math, we have 10-20
friends who listen to us and tag along with us.
 
They never play properly no matter what we say,
and always dump whatever money they get.
 
By making it not worth my while to play there,
they won't get the bump of my circle doing the same.
 
I was thrown out of a casino once for counting cards
at a blackjack table.
 
My friends who I was with, had been brought up to
speed, so I thought, about what I was doing, not to
mention the need for disgression.
 
Well they blew my cover at the table so I was thrown out.
So I left and so did the six people with me.
 
Who had wandered all over the near empty Casino and
were playing slots and craps until they ran out of money
and came back to watch me play BJ.
 
DOH!
 
For every Bob Dancer they kick out, 200 or more
negative EV VP players leave.

--- On Sun, 3/4/12, tomflush <tomflush@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

From: tomflush <tomflush@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 2:00 PM

 

I'm not sure who is advising the casino's, but its not really good advice.
Instead of getting rid of Full pay deuces , lower the pay schedule. For
example, If a casino takes a fp deuces 5 coin schedule and cuts the 5K=70,
and WRF=120, folks would still play it ! Why , simply because at 100.27 EV,
its still the best game in town, and the casino makes an extra $50,000 cash,
for every 10M coin in thanks to the reduced pay schedule.

best...Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "dealt4oak" <dealt4oak@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 9:14 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge

> Ive noticed a lot of complaining from players about FPDW disappearing
> everywhere. I just want to let you folks know they will probably be
> extinct soon, not one slot director wants them, not because of the payback
> but, because of the ease in which people can play and be accurate. This is
> the reason you still see much more 10/7 DB. Even though its positive, most
> people cannot play it correctly. Bob is correct in saying that stations
> will get rid of the deuces soon but Im sure the DDB and DB will stay. All
> those 99.8% purple machines going in at the stations are most likely the
> replacement for many of the MG 100% machines. The 16/10 deuces(they go to
> dollar)are getting more play every time I go in there and that will be the
> death of the FPDW there. Sams Town Deuces are ridiculously slow so they
> pose no threat to their bottom line. Besides I dont see too many people
> playing proper strategy and that place doesn't seem to mind the people
> camping out at the machines with food and trash everywhere. Other places
> are not so forgiving about image. There are tons of articles preaching to
> everyone that knowing several games is the way to go. I think its time
> people actually tried this.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> The machines never came back.
> I doubt they will. Since then, FPDW are gone from almost everywhere. The
> primary place they exist now is Stations/Fiesta ---
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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Re: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge

 

I'm not sure who is advising the casino's, but its not really good advice.
Instead of getting rid of Full pay deuces , lower the pay schedule. For
example, If a casino takes a fp deuces 5 coin schedule and cuts the 5K=70,
and WRF=120, folks would still play it ! Why , simply because at 100.27 EV,
its still the best game in town, and the casino makes an extra $50,000 cash,
for every 10M coin in thanks to the reduced pay schedule.

best...Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "dealt4oak" <dealt4oak@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 9:14 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Gambling With an Edge

> Ive noticed a lot of complaining from players about FPDW disappearing
> everywhere. I just want to let you folks know they will probably be
> extinct soon, not one slot director wants them, not because of the payback
> but, because of the ease in which people can play and be accurate. This is
> the reason you still see much more 10/7 DB. Even though its positive, most
> people cannot play it correctly. Bob is correct in saying that stations
> will get rid of the deuces soon but Im sure the DDB and DB will stay. All
> those 99.8% purple machines going in at the stations are most likely the
> replacement for many of the MG 100% machines. The 16/10 deuces(they go to
> dollar)are getting more play every time I go in there and that will be the
> death of the FPDW there. Sams Town Deuces are ridiculously slow so they
> pose no threat to their bottom line. Besides I dont see too many people
> playing proper strategy and that place doesn't seem to mind the people
> camping out at the machines with food and trash everywhere. Other places
> are not so forgiving about image. There are tons of articles preaching to
> everyone that knowing several games is the way to go. I think its time
> people actually tried this.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> The machines never came back.
> I doubt they will. Since then, FPDW are gone from almost everywhere. The
> primary place they exist now is Stations/Fiesta ---
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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