[vpFREE] Metropolis and Southern Indians

 

I'll be traveling to Horseshoe Southern Indiana and Harrah's Metropolis.  Is there any good VP left and if so where?
 
Thanks,
bcnusoon
 

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Posted by: Clinton House <hpof6@sbcglobal.net>
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

I just thought of this ironic twist to the device law. Now these casinos have machines made by IGT that state "learn perfect strategy" (this is a lie, but irrelevant as far as our dissuasion goes). 5 cards are dealt and the machine gives it recommended play of the hand. This strategy taken as a whole would be better than the strategy used by most players without help from the machine. Casino Employee: "Sir step away from the machine, you are under arrest." Player: "Why?" CE: You are in violation of our state law about using electronic devices. Now step away from the machine." Player: "But you supplied the use of the machine." CE: "Doesn't matter. We call this targeted enforcement. Now step away from the machine, you are under arrest." Could the casino be held as an accomplish to this "crime"? It is legal to sell matches to people in general but if you sell matches to a known arsonist you could be considered an accomplish if this person comits arson with the matches you supplied.

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Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
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RE: [vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 


We're taping the show in a couple of hours. Most of the ideas suggested on this site made it onto the list --- although sometimes in revised form.

There will be a question about the device law --- although I'll be seeking to get the attorneys' opinion on it rather than to bombard them with how various players interpret the law. Hopefully many of you will see value in listening on or after Thursday night.

Thank you for your participation.

Bob
 

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Posted by: Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com>
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[vpFREE] Scot Krause's LVA Players Club Bonus Points Update - 25 AUG 2014

 

Scot Krause's LVA Players Club Bonus Points Update - 25 AUG 2014

http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/greatdeals-slotpromotions.cfm

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Posted by: vpFREE3355 <vpfree3355@gmail.com>
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

"obtained" was less of a disadvantage = advantage = increase in expected return whether positive or negative.

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Posted by: gilrus47@yahoo.com
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

or -1-(-2)>0. I can see both sides of this.

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Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

nit picking here but I would say the person in question did not "obtain an advantage". The only thing that person "obtained" was less of a disadvantage. -1>-2 but -1 is still negative.

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Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

Belatedly caught up with Nordo's recent post and see that I've managed to largely echo his sentiments re the true practicality of using a strategy-assisting device in the casino.FWIW, here's what I come up re the applicable NJ statute:

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5:12-113.1 Use of device to obtain advantage at casino game a disorderly
persons offense; forfeiture; notice
a. A person commits a third degree offense if, in playing a game in a licensed casino or simulcasting facility, the person uses, or assists another in the use of, a computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device which is designed, constructed, or programmed specifically for use in obtaining an advantage at playing any game in a licensed casino or simulcasting facility,
unless the advantage obtained can be assessed a monetary value or loss of $75,000 or greater in which case the offense is a crime of the second degree.
b. Any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device used in violation of subsection a. of this section shall be considered prima facie contraband and shall be subject to the provisions of N.J.S. 2C:64-2. A device used by any person in violation of this section shall be subject to forfeiture pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.2C:64-1 et seq.

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The operative phrase in defining the prohibition is "obtaining an advantage".  The NJ text doesn't define this further in the manner that the NV law did.  However, again I suspect that if by using the device a player improves their expected return (even if still playing at an expected loss against the house), a court would deem that benefit to be "obtaining an advantage".  (Key here is that "over the house" language isn't used.)


---In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <Nordo123@...> wrote :

vpking stated that NJ has the same device law as NV. Not quite if I remember right. In NJ the law says it is illegal to use these devices to gain a "mathematical" advantage over the house. This is a better defined law than Nevada's. It might be legal in NJ to use these devices on most games there. Again I am against anybody using these devices anywhere in the US (legal or not), all it does is bring too much "heat" to the game and to yourself. As gamblers we should know that the risk to reward ratio is too high. For the sake of all gamblers including yourself please don't use these devices.


 

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Posted by: harry.porter@verizon.net
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

right on Harry, couldn't have said it better myself (but I tried).

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Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

vpking's post gets right to the heart of this question.  Any player worth their salt couldn't give a damn what the law says on this subject ...The bottom line is that because casinos have demonstrated, time and time again, that they'll do whatever's necessary to discourage play from players who they deem aren't  profitable, no player with a tad of common sense would openly sit at a machine with a strategy-assisting device and play.


---In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <vpking77@...> wrote :

The law is slightly different in NJ as you point out but nevertheless the casino can make your life miserable if they wanted to pursue it. 

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Posted by: harry.porter@verizon.net
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

The law is slightly different in NJ as you point out but nevertheless the casino can make your life miserable

if they wanted to pursue it. 

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Posted by: vpking77@yahoo.com
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

vpking stated that NJ has the same device law as NV. Not quite if I remember right. In NJ the law says it is illegal to use these devices to gain a "mathematical" advantage over the house. This is a better defined law than Nevada's. It might be legal in NJ to use these devices on most games there. Again I am against anybody using these devices anywhere in the US (legal or not), all it does is bring too much "heat" to the game and to yourself. As gamblers we should know that the risk to reward ratio is too high. For the sake of all gamblers including yourself please don't use these devices.

Sent from my iPhone

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Posted by: nordo123@aol.com
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

In Atlantic City players have attached VP strategy sheets to the machine. They literally have taped the strategy 

to the corner of the machine. I have never seen a security guard or casino employee tell them they can't. In Nevada they might go as so far to 86 you. Because NJ can't throw out an advantage player they do nothing. Calculating how to play a hand on a phone or look up the hand from a strategy card on the phone maybe skating on thin ice. NJ has the same rule on the books as far as devices.

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Posted by: vpking77@yahoo.com
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Re: [vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

Stu M wrote:

>I think these questions are moot. It isn't because people can look up the
>right hold in vp that casinos don't allow electronic devices, they don't
>allow electronic devices because they can easily conceal electronics aimed
>at cheating a machine.

I was playing a machine at the Golden Nugget in Laughlin when I got a
phone call. Security quickly told me to get far away from my machine.

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Posted by: 007 <007@embarqmail.com>
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[vpFREE] Re: XVP --- Legal Questions Sought

 

I think these questions are moot. It isn't because people can look up the right hold in vp that casinos don't allow electronic devices, they don't allow electronic devices because they can easily conceal electronics aimed at cheating a machine. Never underestimate the evil cunning of someone that has great intelligence and electronics skills and can take a casino for millions if 'electronics' were allowed into a casino. It's the whole class of electronics that the casino wants away from their machines so the basic math gives them the expected profits and they can run a business on firm expectations.
Stu M

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Posted by: S Merrian <sauronsboy@gmail.com>
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