I actually agree with both points of view, as the truth is somewhere in between.
Sure, we need to accept that the casinos do not want us to win (even those who are the rank-and-file gamblers putting their money in the no-chance-to-win-in-the-long-run slots know that - there's no magic information there). And sure, they do whatever they can to make us all into losers -- free drinks are not given away because casinos think that's a nice thing to do. There have even been stories (which I don't believe to be true) of pumping extra oxygen into the casinos so that people will stay awake and gamble for longer periods of time. EVERYONE knows the casinos expect to win and are doing all they can to assure that. It's so true, that most people figure, if a casino goes out of business, someone must have been stealing from the till.
But they ARE in competition -- that is, in fact, why one does occasionally go out of business (well, one reason - sometimes someone probably is stealing). They do rely on "action" to make their profits; if no one's in the facility putting money at risk, they can't win it. Some of them will get you in the door with techniques unrelated to the gaming -- e.g., all the fantastic theme casinos with their expensive décor. But if the games are bad enough, even the idiots will eventually figure out that they seem to lose more there than elsewhere, and will start trying elsewhere more often.
So "bargaining" may be worthwhile in some cases. Of course, first of all, you need to convince them that you are the kind of player they want to have -- if they've decided that you are the kind of player they do NOT want to have, the bargaining becomes substantially less productive :)
But if they seem to want you there (i.e., they have not yet yanked your comps, offers, players card, and have not barred you altogether), you may have some bargaining power. Most likely, whoever you talk to is clueless and powerless, and it won't do any good -- but it's still important to point out that they've made it harder to win, or less fun for your money, or (my latest beef) that you hate that an hour of play now earns you only 40% of the points it used to earn you -- and that you're thinking of taking your action elsewhere. You never know when such complaints may result in an improvement in game offerings, or at least a slow-down of taking away the good games.
And the post below suggests that there are other "bargaining" styles that may work as well.
When I decided that it wasn't worth the hassle anymore to play blackjack while counting cards, I went ahead and asked the pit boss what gave me away. Before that, when I still wanted to play, I would act amazingly clueless -- why on earth don't you want me to play, because I'm winning today? When I'd pick up my chips from the table I'd make sure the other players at the table knew I was barred "because apparently they can't stand for anybody to win -- you might as well not play here" -- I wanted the casino to (1) wonder if they'd barred a non-counter who was actually someone they might have wanted to play, and (2) to worry about how such barrings might hurt them by losing other players as well. Whatever I could do to discourage such behavior by them in the future, and with little or no real expectation that they would change their mind about me personally. I most definitely wasn't "bargaining" with them - but I was using whatever approach I personally could think of to try to keep good games in the casino, and to discourage them from barring card counters (my own approach may not have been very effective, but who knows -- almost all the non-card-counters I talk to think it's terrible that casinos can bar someone for playing well).
If we all just give up and accept that the casinos are going to win without resistance, they will make the games worse and worse, so they can win more and more -- because they can. Right now, they're still trying to walk some kind of line where they can make money from almost everyone, while accepting that some skilled players, and the occasional unskilled player, may lose less than they "should" - or even win. If they cross the line in one direction, they don't make as much money as they'd like, but if they cross it in the other direction, the same problem can occur, if too many non-advantage players take their money elsewhere.
--BG
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1d. Re: "Greatest Gambler of All Time" Busted
Date: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:45 pm ((PDT))
RWS wrote: Wouldn't
it just be better if people stopped trying to bargain with casinos
(card counters et al. ) and just accept the fact that casinos do not
want you to win? . . .
No, it would not be better
I do accept that casinos do not want us (as a group) to win. I do accept that they hire experts to close loopholes that I might exploit. I do accept that if you win too much the casino will remove either the opportunity or remove you.
However, I absolutely do NOT accept that trying to bargain with a casino is a bad idea. There are a LOT of circumstances where skill in negotiation can and does help you. Players who are good at bargaining get more than those who merely bend over and take what is offered. Clearly negotiating isn't successful every time --- but even if it helps you 1 time in 12, you are quite a bit ahead by doing it.
In baseball a 250 hitter is pretty average and a 333 hitter is an All Star. The difference between these two numbers is one hit out of 12. In baseball, the 333 hitter earns quite a bit more than the 250 hitter. In gambling, the successful negotiator wins more than anyone who doesn't even try to bargain.
Everybody has a different style of bargaining. People's perception of how useful it is is often based on their own personal experience. Someone who would give up attempting to bargain is either really poor at it or doesn't understand how to get things in life.
Date: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:45 pm ((PDT))
RWS wrote: Wouldn't
it just be better if people stopped trying to bargain with casinos
(card counters et al. ) and just accept the fact that casinos do not
want you to win? . . .
No, it would not be better
I do accept that casinos do not want us (as a group) to win. I do accept that they hire experts to close loopholes that I might exploit. I do accept that if you win too much the casino will remove either the opportunity or remove you.
However, I absolutely do NOT accept that trying to bargain with a casino is a bad idea. There are a LOT of circumstances where skill in negotiation can and does help you. Players who are good at bargaining get more than those who merely bend over and take what is offered. Clearly negotiating isn't successful every time --- but even if it helps you 1 time in 12, you are quite a bit ahead by doing it.
In baseball a 250 hitter is pretty average and a 333 hitter is an All Star. The difference between these two numbers is one hit out of 12. In baseball, the 333 hitter earns quite a bit more than the 250 hitter. In gambling, the successful negotiator wins more than anyone who doesn't even try to bargain.
Everybody has a different style of bargaining. People's perception of how useful it is is often based on their own personal experience. Someone who would give up attempting to bargain is either really poor at it or doesn't understand how to get things in life.
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