What i referred to in bargaining was after they have decided to remove you from the property and playing. After that, what is the point of discussion? I think my post was referring directly to that issue. Having said that....
I am probably one of the most ridiculously sticky towards casino management when it comes to pointing out when they don't follow their rules (like what point cutoffs decide when you earn the highest slot play level). I spent 2 hours in the operations department at a sunny coastal casino (in las vegas) needing to know the exact definition for points cutoffs, which prior to my inquiry was mathematically ambiguous (read: the casino determines the cutoffs subjectively or, worst, was consistently cheating customers prior to late 2012). It seemed my points had 'somehow' dropped off 29 days before the rules said they should. I also got a nice look at the casino computers in the process. The computers were coded to drop off the points almost a month early actually. (read: valuable information).
So when it's warranted, sure, deal with them. But when it's not, i put much more confidence in my ability to find and exploit an edge, so my advice to gamblers is value your time! I enjoy finding edges, you only need to know a little algebra and how computer RND number generators work (hint: they are not and can never be random, just ask a computer programmer.like me).
And what is almost as satisfying as finding it and using discipline to harvest that edge in cash, is going home, figuring out that edge, and coming back to a shifty casino and taking it. Nothing personal, just the personal satisfaction that my intuition is right. As is each person's real intuition regarding this (or any ) endeavor. If you are waiting for a video poker website, casino industry book, or other gambler to "o.k." your hunch, you are not in control of your gambling fate. There are as many edges as their are individual's who can come up with them. My background is in financial trading, math, and computer science, and 1000s of times I have found this to be true. Gambling is a subset of financial trading or vice versa depending on which school you come from initially. You also have to find an edge that supports the experience you want: do you want to play 40 hours per week, or 80/20 the endeavor and play less than an hour per day?
When you back that hunches up by some form of rigorous research and testing, and then you find things that work, then you understand at a functional level what I am talking about.
From: Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com>
To: "vpfree@yahoogroups.com" <vpfree@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: "Greatest Gambler of All Time" Busted
RWS wrote: Wouldn't it just be better if people stopped trying to bargain with casinos (card counters et al. ) and just accept the fact that casinos do not want you to win? . . .
No, it would not be better
I do accept that casinos do not want us (as a group) to win. I do accept that they hire experts to close loopholes that I might exploit. I do accept that if you win too much the casino will remove either the opportunity or remove you.
However, I absolutely do NOT accept that trying to bargain with a casino is a bad idea. There are a LOT of circumstances where skill in negotiation can and does help you. Players who are good at bargaining get more than those who merely bend over and take what is offered. Clearly negotiating isn't successful every time --- but even if it helps you 1 time in 12, you are quite a bit ahead by doing it.
In baseball a 250 hitter is pretty average and a 333 hitter is an All Star. The difference between these two numbers is one hit out of 12. In baseball, the 333 hitter earns quite a bit more than the 250 hitter. In gambling, the successful negotiator wins more than anyone who doesn't even try to bargain.
Everybody has a different style of bargaining. People's perception of how useful it is is often based on their own personal experience. Someone who would give up attempting to bargain is either really poor at it or doesn't understand how to get things in life.
Bob
I am probably one of the most ridiculously sticky towards casino management when it comes to pointing out when they don't follow their rules (like what point cutoffs decide when you earn the highest slot play level). I spent 2 hours in the operations department at a sunny coastal casino (in las vegas) needing to know the exact definition for points cutoffs, which prior to my inquiry was mathematically ambiguous (read: the casino determines the cutoffs subjectively or, worst, was consistently cheating customers prior to late 2012). It seemed my points had 'somehow' dropped off 29 days before the rules said they should. I also got a nice look at the casino computers in the process. The computers were coded to drop off the points almost a month early actually. (read: valuable information).
So when it's warranted, sure, deal with them. But when it's not, i put much more confidence in my ability to find and exploit an edge, so my advice to gamblers is value your time! I enjoy finding edges, you only need to know a little algebra and how computer RND number generators work (hint: they are not and can never be random, just ask a computer programmer.like me).
And what is almost as satisfying as finding it and using discipline to harvest that edge in cash, is going home, figuring out that edge, and coming back to a shifty casino and taking it. Nothing personal, just the personal satisfaction that my intuition is right. As is each person's real intuition regarding this (or any ) endeavor. If you are waiting for a video poker website, casino industry book, or other gambler to "o.k." your hunch, you are not in control of your gambling fate. There are as many edges as their are individual's who can come up with them. My background is in financial trading, math, and computer science, and 1000s of times I have found this to be true. Gambling is a subset of financial trading or vice versa depending on which school you come from initially. You also have to find an edge that supports the experience you want: do you want to play 40 hours per week, or 80/20 the endeavor and play less than an hour per day?
When you back that hunches up by some form of rigorous research and testing, and then you find things that work, then you understand at a functional level what I am talking about.
From: Bob Dancer <bobdancervp@hotmail.com>
To: "vpfree@yahoogroups.com" <vpfree@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: "Greatest Gambler of All Time" Busted
RWS wrote: Wouldn't it just be better if people stopped trying to bargain with casinos (card counters et al. ) and just accept the fact that casinos do not want you to win? . . .
No, it would not be better
I do accept that casinos do not want us (as a group) to win. I do accept that they hire experts to close loopholes that I might exploit. I do accept that if you win too much the casino will remove either the opportunity or remove you.
However, I absolutely do NOT accept that trying to bargain with a casino is a bad idea. There are a LOT of circumstances where skill in negotiation can and does help you. Players who are good at bargaining get more than those who merely bend over and take what is offered. Clearly negotiating isn't successful every time --- but even if it helps you 1 time in 12, you are quite a bit ahead by doing it.
In baseball a 250 hitter is pretty average and a 333 hitter is an All Star. The difference between these two numbers is one hit out of 12. In baseball, the 333 hitter earns quite a bit more than the 250 hitter. In gambling, the successful negotiator wins more than anyone who doesn't even try to bargain.
Everybody has a different style of bargaining. People's perception of how useful it is is often based on their own personal experience. Someone who would give up attempting to bargain is either really poor at it or doesn't understand how to get things in life.
Bob
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