From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Seats added at M
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 12:52 PM
Replies in-line
>>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, patricia swenson <jackessiebabe@...> wrote: May I presume that "something in the works" does NOT include The M's former FPDW and FPKBJW machines?
<<FK reply: No I believe NSUD and similar games are in consideration.
----------------------------------------------------------
Since NSUD is one of my favorite games, and also the game that I played at The M almost exclusively in days gone by, that, combined with Ace$ Bonus, and 9/6 JOB, would certainly satisfy me.
----------------------------------------------------------
>>I also presume that you are not referring to the above two games when you mention "low return non-progressive". If you do, in fact, include those games in your definition, I would certainly be interested in reading about the basis for your reasoning.
<<FK Reply: Yes I am. I have always considered FPDW and FPKBJW to be Low return and I have never played them throughout my 23 year career. I typically don't play anything under a 2% edge unless there are extenuating circumstances. Just my own criteria, not advice.
----------------------------------------------------------
I understand that you had to have certain minimum edges as a PRO, before a game was profitable to you. Most players, certainly visiting rec players have lower expectations.
I doubt that many posters on vpFREE would consider the above games to have a
"low return". Perhaps, in the long term, they might do better with the higher return progs. that you are espousing. However,I suspect that after a few trips, on which they lost their entire trip bankroll, and certainly not did get a lot of play before busting out, most players would opt for a lower variance game.
----------------------------------------------------------
>>Although "Sai Sai" was the OP who asked about the games that M offered when they first opened, I completely agree with him. I also don't much care playing on bankroll busting, sub-par paytables, in order to try popping a long shot high EV prog. I don't accept the notion that feeling as I do, means that I am gambling for any other reason than to win.
<<FK Reply: The Royal is part of the pay-table, there is nothing sub-par about machines where you are frequently getting over 12,000 coin Royals. I'm not sure I understand peoples point of view on this. 95% of my lifetime play has been done on high progressives.
----------------------------------------------------------
My bad! I should have said "sub-par pay-tables OTHER THAN THE PROG. ROYAL", or more simply, "the pay-tables for frequent winning hands".
----------------------------------------------------------
<<To me non-progressives are far more risky. The low return eats you away slowly if you run even slightly bad.
----------------------------------------------------------
I respectfully disagree. The player may be grinding out mininmal profits on FP non-progs., but at least he usually has sufficient playing time, gets a bit of enjoyment out of his play, and occasionally gets lucky and leaves a winner.
----------------------------------------------------------
<<I know independent pros that did nothing but play $ FPDW back in the day and booked losing years. As a progressive player my only worry was losing months.
----------------------------------------------------------
You were both exceedingly skillful and lucky! Congratulations!
----------------------------------------------------------
<<In my opinion you all have this backwards. High progressives are safer than low-return non-progressives. Either that or myself and all the people I know having just been running good for the last two decades.
----------------------------------------------------------
I will not quarrel with your statistics. You are talking about skilled Pros. I'm addressing the play of the majority of skillful rec players.
----------------------------------------------------------
<<Of course none of what I just said takes into consideration the recreational aspect of VP. For some, they may not be willing to lose 6 days a week and hit a GIGANTIC Jackpot only once a week. It doesn't fit with their model for a good time.
----------------------------------------------------------
Exactly right! Many, perhaps most of us, myself included, would not play VP if we were not having a "good time".
----------------------------------------------------------
<<I do understand this. However, if tying to profit from VP is your primary (or only) goal, progressives are far better and safer than conventional AP...IN MY EXPERIENCE.
Bigger edge = more profit. It's simple math.
____________________________________
I will not argue with your conclusion. But, as I said previously, though most of us
hope to profit from our VP play, that is neither the primary or certainly the only reason that we are willing to risk our hard earned money in a casino.
----------------------------------------------------------
<<FK: I hope I answered them. (My questions) My POV is very different. Sometimes I have a hard time with answering things because I can't understand the questions. I hope that didn't happen this time.
----------------------------------------------------------
Not at all. You've explained your POV clearly and concisely, without hyperole. Though I find it a bit strange that you "didn't understand my questions". With VP
as with most other things, there IS more than one POV, despite the hard math
facts.
We do have a disagreement about how to best use our VP bankroll, while still
trying to play profitably. Even if my profits are much less than yours were, this is NOT my occupation. It is my recreation! Different strokes etc.
I understand the math concepts as well as why progs. were profitable for you. I have a few friends who are successful pros, and I know where you are coming from. I still maintain, that the occasional player, who is not lucky enough to see prog. royal, would probably lose their entire trip bankroll, at almost every visit. I doubt that they would find this to be enjoyable.
In summary, if The M puts back some NSUD, I will begin to stay their again with
some frequency, as I really love everything about the casino except for the VP inventory..
~Babe
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
